Go Deadrail with RailPro

[William Brillinger]

Somebody on MRH brought the S-Cab system to my attention.

They have a small LiPo battery and charging board that would allow RailPro users to further simplify wiring and only use the rails for charging. Their system would supply 12V to the module and charge from the track.

http://www.s-cab.com/battery-power.html

Food for thought.

[nodcc4me]

I like the dead rail concept(no more stalls), but the BPS boards are even bigger than the LM's. There is hardly enough room in a diesel and some steam tenders to fit the LM and a speaker.

[William Brillinger]

That's true. For diesel operators, you could add power trucks and gain space.

[KPack]

I looked into the S-Cab BPS a while back when I was considering building a dead rail Railpro locomotive.  But like Al said, the BPS and battery are both large enough to make it nearly impossible to fit everything into a standard HO locomotive.  Power trucks are an option, but they are not cheap at all.  I have a hard time fitting the electronics that I already have, let alone a battery and power module.  Even in my recent C44-9W's it was a tight fit....granted I installed 4 speakers in each, but still it would be tough to do the additional electronics. 

Definitely possible, but maybe not practical yet.  Some "keep-alive" caps would be welcome though.  Hopefully Tim comes up with something soon that will work easily with Railpro.

-Kevin

[DBeacon]

Scale will be key in this regard.  Progress will be made...batteries are always getting smaller.  As such let's hope Tim and his team are working hard to solve many issues.  I've chosen On30 to free my, hopefully, artistic license and the available room for "deadrail".

[melarson]

About a month before the NTS in Portland I purchased a battery and BPS from Neil Stanton/S-Cab with the intention of installing it in my Big Boy sometime after the show.  Last week I finally got off my keester, took the battery out and ran it through the initial testing process, charged it, and hooked it up to an LM-2S on the bench.

While not installed in an engine, I think this shows quite nicely how easy it is to power a RailPro module with one of these battery packs.  The video shows the system devoid of any connections to an external power supply.  The loose gray wires on the right are the BPS input.  In an install they would be connected to the rail leads.  This allows the battery to be recharged by simply setting the engine on a piece of powered track.  The pushbutton switch on the right shuts the battery system down so there is no drain on the battery when not in use.  There is a reed switch on the reverse side of the BPS board that turns the system on using the supplied magnetic wand (it's a pencil with a magnet attached where the eraser normally is).  Alternately, the system will turn on automatically when you place the engine on powered track.

Next step is of course to get it installed in the engine.  That may take another month or two but when done I will post another video.

--Michael

[William Brillinger]

very cool, but wow, that's a lot of stuff to try and fit into an HO shell!

[melarson]

Agreed, Bill.  I know this is a few technological steps away from being practical for space-limited HO engines.  But packing it into the big, empty 14-wheel tender of a brass Big Boy appears more than doable, especially since the module and the speaker are both in the boiler.  And since I run passenger trains almost exclusively, every one with a head end car right behind the power, I'm looking forward to a few more deadrail conversions in the next couple of years.

I've often contemplated what it would take to produce "deadrail chassis" replacements for popular HO diesels.  Something along the lines of a very low-mounted motor and linkage like the Overland drives have might free up enough space to make this practical.  Self powered units like the Stanton drive would be best in terms of gained space, but the trade off is tractive effort, I think.  Plus, right now they only come in 4-wheel configs.  In 2011 at the NTS in Sacramento, when I asked NWSL about plans for a 6-wheel version, they said they were looking into it, but sadly, to date they still have none.

But, time and technology march on, and I am supremely optimistic about the future of deadrail, and think RailPro is particularly well-suited to achieving that end.

--Michael

[KPack]

Thanks for the demo.  Railpro would certainly be a great way to go if you were to go deadrail.  Like Bill said, that is a ton of stuff to fit inside a shell, which is why I haven't jumped on deadrail yet.  I would not be able to fit all that even in something like a C44-9W.  It will certainly work in your tender though.

I'm hoping that batteries and the charging circuit become smaller and more manageable.  Once that happens then deadrail will look much more appealing to me!

As a side note, looking at all the components there the Railpro module is the smallest by far.  That's interesting considering that some detractors blasted the Railpro module for being so large.  The second generation module is a great size.  Lots of power and capability packed into that tight box.

-Kevin

[nodcc4me]

As a side note, looking at all the components there the Railpro module is the smallest by far.  That's interesting considering that some detractors blasted the Railpro module for being so large.  The second generation module is a great size.  Lots of power and capability packed into that tight box.

-Kevin

Very true Kevin. I believe there are plans for an N scale module. Imagine the size of that.

[drisdon]

What if the flywheels were eliminated? That would make more room for a battery and associated electronics, correct?  Flywheels were added to keep a locomotive moving through imperfect track conditions (dirt) I believe.  If you are only using battery power then there are not any electrical interruptions and no energy is wasted turning flywheel mass.  Do RC cars or planes use flywheels?  I'm not an expert, but I would guess they do not.

Dan

[Alan]

What if the flywheels were eliminated? That would make more room for a battery and associated electronics, correct?  Flywheels were added to keep a locomotive moving through imperfect track conditions (dirt) I believe.  If you are only using battery power then there are not any electrical interruptions and no energy is wasted turning flywheel mass.  Do RC cars or planes use flywheels?  I'm not an expert, but I would guess they do not.

Dan

I believe the flywheels are needed to smooth out the PWM speed control. Keep the locomotive from stuttering.

[MidnghtOwl]

a few thoughts and questions.  (and thanks for the Link Bill!).

I"m just getting started in this great hobby, and I'm a hound at research.  I have my HO layout 95% planned, and really like the idea of a true dead rail system, (why wire everything)  and the rail pro is by far the best controller I've seen.

I'm curious how serious railpro is in saying 12v DC in a dead rail concept.  I find it hard to believe their LM-2 board requires more than about 1.5 volts to send and receive data from the controller which of course has it's own power supply.  If were talking about motive power (without sound or with minimum sound) other users in ho deadrail report pretty solid results with 7.2V. 

I realize some of this discussion is about charging from power rails.  But I've also read about how touchy the Li-po batteries can be, and charging wrong (which to me a 12v rail would be drawing to much without ANOTHER circuit board on board to manage charging voltage.  Thus in some ways, it seems safer to charge from the proper Li-Pro charger?

For Batteries in HO scale diesels, and I realize this might be a "your an idiot" question since I have zero experience playing with engines. but my research, reading everything from TAM, to Dead rail user groups, to forums, here etc suggests that at normal operating speeds with an average train your using 350-500mah of draw at 7.2v.  It is also possible to pair batteries.  My thought/question would be, could a small 300- 500mah 7.2v battery fit in the fuel tank for yard/switching operations, and then a grain car/box/oil tanker be connected to the engine for operational running?  It might be a benefit if you could turn off the engine battery while connected to the battery car.    I realize this requires more recharging, but at first glace it seems that it would take care of 95% of how we use our railroads.

-Owl  (Jared)

[KPack]

Jared - I can't fully answer the question regarding at what voltage Railpro will still work, though I can tell you for sure that you can take a normal 9-volt battery, stick it on the track (with track power off of course) and you can control your locomotive just fine.  Granted, the locomotive will run slower due to the decreased voltage available, but all the communication and functions work just fine.  I'm sure it could be used at lower voltages, but I'm not positive how low you could go.

Fitting a battery in the fuel tank is a possibility, but that is where the motor mounts.  So in order to have room for the battery you will need to find another way to mount the motor. 

LiPo's are indeed sensitive and require careful charging.  Like you said, a separate circuit is necessary to safely charge a LiPo from the rails....takes up space, but works.  The video above shows this.  I've had some experience around LiPo's through my time in airsoft and have heard and seen some of those scary stories.  We used high quality chargers that detected the battery's condition and charge capacity and adjusted the charging rate automatically.  I was always close by when charging as well.  The risk of fire is just too high if something goes wrong.

-Kevin

[MidnghtOwl]

Thanks Kevin. 

I've been searching the various manufactures sites for SD70's and GP40's blueprints which would most likely be my primary first engines.. (since it matches what i'm modeling, UP railyard here in Iowa).  So I was hoping to find a manufacture that was using the tank as nothing more than a weight point, (or empty)  I have seen some of the frames/chassis that sink the motor as you mentioned, making using that space pretty tough.  Likely I need to make the 2 hour jaunt to my "local" hobby store and have the guys there open a bunch of boxes!!

-Owl (Jared)