RailPro > RailPro Specific Help & Discussion
Frog Juicers compatible with RailPro?
Tom:
I stand corrected: Shinohara turnouts do not have frogs powered by switch point contact.
I have a very small all Ring layout. I can reach all turnouts to operate them manually. Several locomotives stall for a split second on #6 turnouts. A couple of locos/tenders have 6 wheel trucks and one has room for a TCS Keep-Alive so no problems with these. Thinking novice, what might be a couple of the least cumbersome simpler options available to keep locomotives running over these turnouts?
I thought I had hit the jackpot with the Tam Valley Frog Juicer, but it only partially works with Ring PWR-56. Maybe an easy option is just to switch to a DCC power supply that works with the Juicer. Ring LM-2S/3S modules work with DCC power.
Tom
Alan:
You pretty much covered your options - keep-alive, DCC on the rails, hard wiring.
Keep-Alive is probably the best option if your fleet is relatively small and there is sufficient space in the equipment. The Keep-Alive fix comes with the caveat that every electricity using rolling stock needs one - locos, lighted cars, sound cars, etc. The benefit is no hardware and no layout wiring.
DCC on the rails will make frog juicers work but you need more than just the power supply. A booster of some sort is needed to put the square wave on the rails so there is the cost of the extra equipment (that serves no other useful purpose). And you will be locked into the effective rectified voltage of the DCC system instead of having the option of selecting any rail voltage you wish. 14v DCC square wave is not the direct power equivalent of 14V DC. The effective voltage is slightly less from DCC due to the momentary zero volt crossing and the packet shape of the DCC waveform. Not a deal breaker but something to be aware of especially if combined with Keep-Alive.
Hard wiring feeders and a direct wire method of switching frog polarity is the best option in the long run but does require the upfront effort to put it into place. It has the advantages of absolute lowest cost, no concerns of potential hardware failures in the future, and no space utilization inside locos. It also affords you the option of using any voltage power supply you wish which is extremely useful on a large layout (overcoming buss and rail resistance) or when adding occupancy detection for signaling (diode drop sensing).
Of the above three, only Keep-Alive somewhat compensates for dirty track. The analysis then becomes how much cost and effort are you willing to expend so you don't have to clean track so often.
Tom:
Alan,
Thanks for the reply. Based on your comments I will probably go with the hard wiring one way or the other. I think I have heard of hand switch throws that have a way to run a wire from the throw to the frog such that the polarity is changed when the switch is manually thrown. I hope this is not exactly the same, or as precarious as, the contact method of the old Shinohara turnouts which is not advised.
In the mean time I asked Ring about this and he wants me to buy an AR-1 to power as well as change the polarity on a frog. I cannot understand how this would work. From Ring: “There should be two connection points to power the frog. You would simply connect RT1 to one of them and RT2 to the other (makes no difference which one is connected to RT1 or RT2).” But there is only one place to power a frog, at least Atlas anyway. That would mean one has to combine the RT1 and RT2 wires and run them both to the frog connection point which does not sound right.
Tom
Alan:
There are oodles of ways to switch frog polarity. Any sort of SPDT or DPDT switch attached to the thowbar linkage will suffice. Your imagination is the limit.
RP AR-1 is a frog polarity solution but it gets real expensive real fast. $30 each (at pdc.ca) for the ability to control a single frog is out of range unless you need only a couple or have money to burn. I have not used an AR-1 as a frog juicer because I have no need but I do have one on a reversing loop. For frog juicing I believe you would connect either RT1 or RT2 to the frog leaving the other RT unused. No frog I know of has two electrical connection points or two isolated metal parts for that matter. Think of it this way - if you had a reversing loop where the insulated rail joiners are staggered then an approaching train would short only one RT terminal as it crosses the first insulated joiner. The AR-1 flips polarity even though the train never crossed the second insulated rail joiner. The frog arrangement is effectively the same as crossing one insulated rail joiner with the unconnected RT being another insulated rail joiner an infinite distance away.
JJ Crooke:
--- Quote from: Tom on July 16, 2018, 09:20:30 PM ---Can someone explain how to wire an ANE v5 AP003 Smartfrog? I am not certain I understood the wiring explanation by Joel on August 7, 2016. My frame of reference is frog juicer where a + and – from the power buss goes into the frog juicer and then up to 6 individual wires are each run from the frog juicer to up to six individual frogs - simple enough. But where does the power go into on the ANE v5 Smartfrog: the “TRACK+”, the “TRACK-“, or somewhere else? If it either one or the other, is there anything else besides connecting the actual frog to “FROG” on the Smartfrog?
--- End quote ---
Tom,
What you described here is a Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer, which powers 6 turnouts. The ANE v5 AP003 SmartFrog is similar to the Mono Frog Juicer as it powers only one turnout. I have no issues at all using 30 SmartFrogs on my layout, all powered by the PWR-56. Here's a picture of a SmartFrog under my layout (see below).
Tam Valley's Mono Frog Juicer is only DCC compatible and will not work with DC (like the PWR-56). ANE Model's v5 SmartFrog is both DC and DCC compatible. If I understand correctly, the SmartFrog can work around the DC vs DCC issue by powering the SmartFrog circuitry (POWER connections) separately from the turnout polarity (TRACK+, TRACK- and FROG connections), hence the extra two wires (total of 5) compared to the Mono Frog Juicer (3 wires).
The SmartFrog device feeds to the frog (via FROG connection) whatever current (DC or DCC) that is coming in from the TRACK+ or TRACK- connections (main Bus). This incoming current bypass any circuitry and goes straight to the frog.
The SmartFrog circuitry (POWER connections; what makes the device detect a short and trigger the change of polarity) can be powered by either DC or DCC (in this case by the main Bus with a PWR-56).
Not sure if it makes any sense but all I know is that it works with the PWR-56.
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