RailPro User Group
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: G8B4Life on July 27, 2018, 09:44:38 AM
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RailPro... Do we now have real competition? Where to from here?
This is supposed to be a thought provoking piece.
Being somewhat slack this week, I only just got around to watching Ken Patterson's What's Neat This Week podcast. One of the 50 or so people Ken had in his house while the podcast was being recorded was Matt Herman from ESU, who had with him the ESU Cab Control system and he gave a brief talk about it. While I knew of the ESU Cab Control system, and what it grew from (the ESU ECoS system) I never bothered to read up on it before so with Matt Herman's specs in mind off I went to read up on it and what I discovered was pretty astounding, with ESU DCC control has essentially caught up to RailPro.
I don't know who had some of the features we love in RailPro first, Ring with RailPro or ESU with their ECoS (I believe Ring did) however ESU's ECoS system was not aimed at the North American market while their new Cab Control system is, so that's where the comparison will be as it's the competitor to RailPro. So what do both systems have in common?
- Both wireless systems support at least 30 throttles in use at once. +1 to both systems.
- Both systems feature a touch screen (RP 320 x 240px at 116 ppi, ESU 480 x 800px at 280 ppi) so +1 to ESU for the higher quality screen there though RailPro's screen is larger.
- Both systems have a knob for speed control. +1 to both systems.
- Both systems feature a locomotive picture with an alias to the decoder ID. +1 to both systems.
- Both systems feature an icon for function buttons. +1 to RailPro to be able to add text to the buttons.
- Both systems feature bi-directional communication. +1 to RailPro as this was built into the system from the start (not an add-on like DCC) and is more comprehensive as far as I can tell.
- Both systems feature unrestricted "function mapping". +1 to RailPro apparently for being able to pretty much assign any picture to any function whereas with ESU this may not be the case.
- Both systems are upgradable via software download from the manufacturer. +1 to both systems.
Now, looking at some of the capability between the two systems:
- Cab Control has 2 user defined physical buttons on the controller. RailPro has none. +1 to ESU.
- RailPro has 16 function "slots" available. Cab Control has 28. +1 to ESU.
- At this time, RailPro seems to have much more comprehensive system and fault information available to the user. +1 for RailPro.
- Cab Control can contain 16,000 locomotives in the system. RailPro can only contain a fraction of that. +1 to ESU.
- Cab Control can control over 1,000 accessories. RailPro can only control a fraction of that. +1 to ESU.
- Cab Control has 2 gigabytes of flash memory and 512 megabytes of RAM. There are no published specs for the HC-2 but current research has revealed only 16 megabytes of flash memory and half a megabyte of RAM. +1 to ESU.
- IMO Cab Control has a more pleasing to the eye UI, so that's a personal +1 to ESU from me.
There are probably more comparisons to make but it's getting late. Overall I think RailPro may be the more comprehensive system insofar as user freedom is concerned but I've never played with the Cab Control system so I don't know it's full capabilities.
I don't think RailPro has much to fear in the short term from the 2 / 3 predominant DCC system manufacturers in the US (DigiTrax, NCE, MRC) but ESU has squarely aimed their product into RailPro's space. While it doesn't have the one thing that sold nearly all of us on RailPro (automatic load sharing) it seems to have everything else RailPro and a greater capacity to do all those things.
While I'm not figuring to abandon RailPro and I think it can hold it's own in this (currently) two horse touchscreen and knob race I think it's need a shot in the arm to bring it up to a better level playing field. While not much can be done in the way of hardware capability until the next generation of hand held is developed a more modern UI and opening up more function slots would be a good step in the right direction.
What do other think?
- Tim
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Nice comparison list.
It goes without saying, system selection should be made based on your specific needs and likes. As such I can only speak for myself. RP has more than enough capability/capacity to run my layout. I am out of basement space so the layout won't get any bigger, no worries of outgrowing RP. Even if RP never advances beyond where it is now I will still be a satisfied user. Your statement "the one thing that sold nearly all of us on RailPro (automatic load sharing)" is absolutely true for me. It was the slam dunk deciding factor. In the marketing world they call it a Market Differentiator. Until load sharing appears in competitive products I think RP's market differentiator will continue to draw customers. Should RP lose this sole differentiator then Tim Ring had better get real busy real fast.
One can dream, right? Add an Alexa-like AI driven voice control. Put it in inside a ProtoThrottle-like case. Then you have buttons and levers for things that should have buttons and levers and voice control for all the functions normally done on screens. That would be cool.
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Agree that the load-sharing is what drew me to Railpro initially, and so far it's something that no one else has been able to do. Some of the things that the ESU system does can easily be changed with Railpro, some not so easily.
Adding additional function buttons should be very easy, and I'm not quite sure why Tim hasn't done that yet. Granted, I've found myself fine with having 16 buttons. Rarely have I had a need for more. All of my most used functions are on the first page (horn, bell, load, brake, dynamic brake, coupler, etc) and all my lights and the prime mover are on the second page.
Changing the UI would be easy I think. I really liked the dark gray scheme we had toyed around with here. I would love to have that implemented.
I'm not concerned about Railpro having the capability to store the information for 16,000 locomotives. I mean, really, that's a completely useless number. Same with the number of accessories. And quite honestly I don't care to control accessories from a controller anyways. That's one function on Railpro that I've never used.
I would like to see more hardware upgrades though. One or two physical buttons that can be user-defined would be great. Larger memory should be easy to add (flash memory is cheap) and would be very welcome. That way we wouldn't have to keep deleting files off the controllers. Increasing the memory alone would change Railpro for the better. More RAM would mean faster navigation and load times, more storage memory would mean more stored files, and probably larger files.
Honestly, there is no DCC system that could draw me away from Railpro. Any video I've ever watched regarding DCC systems (including well-made ones by TrainMaster's TV) bore me within 2 minutes. It's a great way to fall asleep.
-Kevin
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One can dream, right? Add an Alexa-like AI driven voice control. Put it in inside a ProtoThrottle-like case. Then you have buttons and levers for things that should have buttons and levers and voice control for all the functions normally done on screens. That would be cool.
It's funny you should mention that Alan, the Cab Control throttles have a 3.5 mm stereo headset port (headphone and microphone) and as was mentioned in the podcast, technically you could Skype other throttle users. Wouldn't be hard for them to add voice recognition (given it's an Android system there would probably be many libraries they could choose from), though I don't want to give them any ideas. On that, one other comparison I didn't put in was just that, Cab Control is Android based, and they even mention that "Due to the open platform design you may add further apps for the Google Play Store at any time".
Kevin,
That's some good feedback.
The load sharing is protected by a patent. I'm not knowledgeable on anything patent so I guess that either no one has come up with a different way of implementing load sharing or nobody sees it as a better way.
Extra function slots would be easy, and the different UI would be ridiculously easy. There would be some limitation on what the UI could do in relation to having a whole button change background colour like in some of the mockups but it'd still be a ridiculously easy change.
- Tim
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I also saw this on what's neat this week and was thinking the same thing but it looks like it is wifi not two way radio
Josh
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Your statement "the one thing that sold nearly all of us on RailPro (automatic load sharing)" is absolutely true for me. It was the slam dunk deciding factor.
That is also my main reason for choosing RailPro.
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Honestly, there is no DCC system that could draw me away from Railpro.
-Kevin
Me either. But the real question for RailPro is: Will those who are dissatisfied with traditional DCC, start to choose ESU Cab Control instead of RailPro.
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For my uses, the only significant drawback that I find with RailPro is the small number of steam sounds available. (I only run steam.) Only two engine sounds and none in the new ULT format. I have about a dozen steamers -- of all sizes, and would like them to sound different from each other. I also have a Shay -- no sound for it at all.
I can't see myself ever switching away from RailPro, but when I run my trains, I keep thinking, I wish I had some more variety in my locomotive sounds.
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The competition was inevitable. I’m sure RailPro will continue to evolve. More sounds and features will become available in time, along with N scale modules. I won’t switch.
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I have both RailPro and ESU Ecos. I think both systems are very good (but I only finished hooking up the Ecos yesterday so I don't have a lot of experience with it yet). The screen size of the RailPro is only slightly bigger than the ESU Mobile II but it seems a lot easier to use/read/navigate. I think the load sharing feature of RailPro is the biggest plus and the two way radio communication is another big plus (especially when using battery power). ESU has an advantage of being in the huge user base of DCC world but the new LM3's being DCC compatible took a big chunk of that advantage away. One other potential advantage of ESU is being compatible with the new ProtoThrottle (I have one but have not connected it yet).
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I think you will find most modelers won't switch from DCC. Too much time and money invested. You will find a lot of modelers, like me, that will add RailPro to an existing DCC system. I have too many engines and money in my DCC system to make a 100% change. ( although a couple of years ago I sent a complete Digitrax system to the landfill and purchased an NCE system. Wish I had known about RailPro then. )
The modelers that should be taking a hard look at RailPro are the DC only crowd. A hand controller and install a couple of decoders and run your trains.
I think the above is true of any non-DCC system.
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I have a question though, Don't you still have to deal with CV's and all that crap with system?
Thanks,
Joel B.
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There are no CVs and all that other crap with RailPro. Everything is done with the touch screen on the handheld controller. Amazing how easy it is.
This page will get you started. https://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm (https://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm)
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I have a question though, Don't you still have to deal with CV's and all that crap with system?
I think he wants to know about the ESU system.
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Yes that's what meant, ESU system and CV"s and crap, not RP. Sorry for not being clear on that. I know enough about RP when I "need" (read "can justify/afford") to have a control system that's the way I will go.
Thanks
Joel B.
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Reading and changing CV's using the Ecos system is easier than using my old DCC system but it is still way more complicated and confusing than updating a RailPro decoder.
John H.
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Thanks John, that's what I wanted to know. So basically it's just a different UI on top of Dcc, the way I understand it.
Thanks,
Joel B.
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Hi, former RailPro user because I wanted a ProtoThrottle. My DCC system of choice became after an exhaustive search, the ESU Cab Control system 7 amp system. I sold my RailPro equipment because Tim Ring would not talk to me about interfacing the PT with RP. Sorry for restarting this thread but I stopped coming here in July when my ESUsystem and the PRotoThrottle arrived.
Let me say the ESU system is excellent. Let me say my 3 years of prior use of the RP system was better and less frustrating. Shared loads, NOT on ESU, plenty of CV playing around with, oh yeah. Loconet features, yep the unactivated port is ready. Updatable software via the internet, gee sounds familiar. Affordability, tough to answer that, as each of us has different financial happenings. In my research of the ESU, I believe it is the best bang for a buck in the DCC market.
The use together with the ProtoThrottle is as they say priceless. But I only have 1 PT and again I am seriously thinking of going back to RP. I played with creating my own interface for RP and the PT but I am not qualified. There are lots of starting out engineers and creative people in my area of Madison, Wi. But they want too much to create one for me. Reverse engineering the Ring Engineering systems for one’s own use is legal, for commercial use, it is not legal.
People who have nevered used a RP system do not understand what they are missing. I know I am preaching to the choir but the RP truly is a great system. The ESU system as I mentioned is excellent but even with updatable software, the use of WiFi, it is not an easy system to learn. I will remind you that CV playing is not enjoyable. I have now used on my layout, DC, CVP, DeadRail using the CVP wireless throttles and the RailPro system, RP via the rails and now ESU via rails with the ProtoThrottle and RailPro is by far the easiest system to operate, consist and enjoy your Railroad. The ProtoThrottle though is an enhancement I will not do without as it truly has changed the thrill to me of operating my locomotives.
Is ESU competition to RailPro? Not in my mind. The biggest issue though with RailPro is in 2 words, Tim Ring. He has created a marvelous game changing system that he will not push to sell or interact easily with its users. We all know Tim is happy advertising on MRH but that is the only place I have seen his RailPro ads. I don’t believe if something would happen to Tim that things for RailPro users would change much for years after. No different I feel then if something changed for the principles at Digitrac or CVP.
YMMV
Tom in Wisconsin
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Tom, there's nothing saying you can't use both systems on your layout. Why not Protothrottle for switching and Railpro for mainline MU lashups? Best of both worlds?
Ease of use and enjoyment is why I like Railpro. I do wish that some things would be different (faster development/updates/sounds, more willing to enhance the product), but I'm certainly happy with the improvements that have been made thus far. I just can't ever see myself going back to CV's.....just the thought makes me want squeeze a lemon into my eyes.
I think ESU has really set the standard when it comes to DCC. Their sounds and operating system are very nice. Railpro is a different beast and probably has a lot of underutilized potential.
-Kevin
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Kevin thanks for the reply. Basically I errored and should have kept a RP throttle but that’s life. I am thinking seriously of doing that. I have given up the idea of interfacing the PT with RailPro but I know there are a couple guys working on it or just talking. I will let folks know.
Tom
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the only significant drawback that I find with RailPro is the small number of steam sounds available.
I have about 40 steam locomotive models of all types, but until Railpro significantly expands its sound library, I will defer ordering more LM3s. I've been following this forum since it started, but so far the sound upgrades seem limited to diesel prime movers, bells, whistles and barking dogs. I truly hope the
system becomes more useful to the pre-diesel modeller, because in all other aspects I consider it superior to anything else on the market.
Incidentally, when I first got my Railpro, I had to call Tim Ring for help on a weekend: He answered the phone himself and was VERY gracious and patient. Hard to find customer service like that anywhere these days!
JimW