RailPro User Group
RailPro => RailPro Specific Help & Discussion => Topic started by: SD90 on June 05, 2016, 11:21:34 AM
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Hello, I have been out of the hobby for about 8 years. Last time I was in N scale running a DigiTrax Super Chief System. I never liked how archaic the programming was, the system worked good, but the throttle and programming was brutal. This time, I'll be modelling HO scale, and starting over, from scratch. I sold EVERYTHING. So I'm looking at my options for a control system. I have a few questions I hope you can help me with...
How many locomotives can you run with RailPro? I've heard 12-15, is that upgradable? Is it the power supply that governs that number or can the system be upgraded? On my last layout, I had 50 locomotives, all with decoders, so 15 may not cut it. I don't think I'll need as many HO scale locomotives, (trains won't have as many cars, and locomotives can pull more) but I still think I'll eventually have around 20-25 locomotives.
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First of all, let me welcome you to the forum. I'll try to give you a little info that I have gleaned. I have 20 locos with modules in them right now, with about 5-6 more to do. I'm not aware of a limit you can put in the Hand Control, but there are more experienced members that will correct me if I'm wrong. As far as to the number of engines that can be run at the same time, I was told by Ring that 12 is the maximum. But, I don't know if that is the max per power supply, or some other parameter that limits the number.
The one thing that made me decide to go with RailPro, was the absence of CV's. I belong to a club that has been running Digitrax for over 20 years, so I am very familiar with that system. The occurrence of issues with losing contact with engines and the PITA of consisting, made it a no-brainer for me to switch.
Tim, Kevin, Bill and many others are a wealth of information and are very helpful in time of need.
Joe
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RailPro, like DCC, has a fixed number of locos that can be operated simultaneously from a single controller. Your fleet of RP equipped locos can, for all practical purposes, be as large as you wish just as you can have as many controllers as you wish.
No limiting factors to be concerned with.
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I started with a DigiTrax empire builder, it can run 22 locomotives, I quickly found out that even when you have engines MU'd together, sitting in the staging yard, they still use up those 22 available address. So if I had 7 trains in staging, each with 3 locomotives on them, that would only leave me 1 locomotive I could run, without un MU'ing a consist. It was a PIA, so I had to upgrade to the Super Chief, that gave me the ability to run 128 locomotives, (I think.) Again, not all running at the same time, that would need additional power supplies, but just being consisted together, takes up the slots.
So if I'm understanding correctly, I could have 40 RailPro equipped locomotives on the layout, consisted in pairs, (so 20 trains ) and I could only RUN 6 trains (12 locomotives ) at once? I'm designing this layout for operations, maybe 6-8 operators during an op session.
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I could have 40 RailPro equipped locomotives on the layout, consisted in pairs, (so 20 trains ) and I could only RUN 6 trains (12 locomotives ) at once?
From --> 1 <-- controller. Not practical for a single operator. If you had 10 controllers then you could have 10 guys running 60 trains. Invite me, I have to see that in action. :o
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That's what I mean, I'd have more than 1 controller, maybe 6-8. But I thought 12 locomotives is the max, at the same time? Say I have 4 trains, being controlled by 4 throttles, 3 locomotives on each train consisted together, that's 12 engines, would operator numbers 5 and 6 be out of luck?
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Welcome to the forum.
12 locomotives from ONE controller is the max at one time for that controller. You can CONTROL that many AT ONCE from a SINGLE controller. You can have as many additional controllers as you want and they EACH will have a max of 12 locomotives at one time for that specific controller. So 5-6 throttles means you could theoretically control 60-70 locomotives SIMULTANEOUSLY from those 5-6 controllers.
"Controlling" is different from locomotives stored on the controller. You can have as many locomotives stored on the individual controllers as you want with no issue. You can "control" (meaning actively running and changing speed) 12 locomotives at the same time from that controller. Stop using a locomotive and break up any MU's on it and it stops being "controlled". I've never used up my 12 at once maximum.
Bottom line is you will have absolutely no problem running however many trains you want from however many controllers you want. You've found the right system!
-Kevin
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Hi Kevin, What is the maximum amperage output of the power supply? I was thinking it was 5 amps, which would equate to about 10-12 or so engines before you run into diminished power. If that's the case, would more power supplies enable you to have more engines running at one time? Just curious.
Joe
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According to the Ring website, each PWR-56 can run up to 15 locomotives.
"A single PWR-56 is likely to operate 15 or more modern HO scale locomotives at the
same time. However, if you want to run even more locomotives, turnouts, lights, etc,
you can by adding multiple PWR-56’s to increase the available power to your model
railroad layout"
You can add power supplies to increase the number and they will act as repeaters for signal strength on larger layouts. The HC-2 can display 24 locomotive pictures on 4 pages. If you have more than that, just hit Find Product and it will detect another module while deleting one off the display.
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If you don't need the repeater function you can use commercial switch mode power supplies. They are available inexpensively up to 50A. The RailPro radio signal is plenty strong throughout my 28' x 32' layout. Not needing signal repeating I went the SMPS route. Much less expensive and much greater amperage selection available.
Currently I use a 7 amp model ($19.95) which is ample for operating 20-25 Atlas or equiv locomotives @ around 200mA per loco + a little supply headroom. Should the day come I want to run more then I simply swap out the supply for larger unit. The bus wiring is 12 gauge so should be good all the way to 20 amps. That would a be a staggering 100 locos running.
http://www.lkorailroad.com/powering-the-lko-part-i/ (http://www.lkorailroad.com/powering-the-lko-part-i/)
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Is the power supply that comes with the system 5 amp? I imagine it will more than handle the 12 locomotives per throttle?
It sounds like I don't have anything to worry about.
The 24 locomotives that can be displayed on the 4 pages, is that due to memory on the throttle? Is it possible on newer throttles down the line they will have the ability to display more?
I may be getting ahead of myself, considering I don't even own 1 locomotive yet, I just want to be sure!
I'll probably get the system and an extra controller for my son to run trains with me, to start, but just to be clear...if I had 24 locomotives with RailPro modules in them, and 2 controllers, we could run any combination of those 24 locomotives, at the same time? ( say, 4 trains with 6 engines on each? )
Now that I say that, it sounds kinda silly!
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Hi SD90 (name???)
Welcome to the forum. Everyone else has got the specifics pretty well covered so I'll just add a couple of things. Probably the easiest way to think of RailPro when coming from DCC is to think of the hand held controller as a command station with built in wireless and throttle, except in RailPro's case you can use as many command stations at once as you please.
Just like your experience in DCC, having loco's MU'd counts as being controlled, and you'd have to un-MU them to free up the slots. This slot limit as pointed out only affects the individual hand held. If we were operating together and my throttle had 12 MU'd loco's your throttle would be unaffected by that and could still MU and run locomotives up until you reached the slot limit for the controller you were using.
I'd highly recommend watching Kevin's videos below. They contain as wealth of information on various topics, and are better than even the official videos from Ring Engineering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGx7lQC2-0Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGx7lQC2-0Y)
Kevins RailPro review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uL69dp0qmA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uL69dp0qmA)
Kevins RailPro installation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRpszhMpks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRpszhMpks)
Kevins RailPro buttons.
- Tim
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The PWR-56 is 3 amps.
As Al has mentioned, you don't absolutely have to use the supply that comes with RailPro. You can use almost any DC power supply as long as it outputs 15 volts and is regulated. 3 amps should still be plenty for modern loco's with quality motors. I really wouldn't want to put much more than 3 amps into the rails myself anyway; 5 amps can do some serious damage if a short happens and is not detected.
I'd say the 24 picture limit is based on memory. It might be possible for RE to increase this but it might be at the expense of something else.
Yes, you can run any combination of those loco's at the same time, but you couldn't run the same loco's at the same time(eg, you can't both control locomotive 4334 at the same time). If you had 24 loco's with RP in them, both controllers would be able to have all 24 loco's stored in them at the same time.
- Tim
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Thanks Tim! My name is Mike, sorry! That answers lots of questions!
You brought up shorts, if that happens, say a locomotives derails on a switch and shorts, will the RailPro module protect the engine by shutting the track power down? I know that is how you tested the DigiTrax system, if it could detect a short, it shut the power down, if not, it could wreck locomotives!
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The RP module has built in over-voltage, over-temperature, and over-current protection. So, the module is very well protected.
If a short occurs it occurs before the module in the power path. Therefore, the module doesn't even really know there is a short. It just knows the power went out. This is no different than DCC.
Protecting against excessive current due to a short is the function of a circuit breaker most of which are self-resetting. All RP power supplies come with internal circuit breakers. In addition there is a RP circuit breaker/auto reverser module available. I agree with Tim that it doesn't take much amperage to do damage during a short. The Delrin plastic truck side frames melt easily.
If you want auto-resetting fast-acting circuit breakers of any trip current you wish then feel free to copy my design. They work well and cost less than $5.00 ea to build. http://www.lkorailroad.com/circuit-breaker-and-block-detector-final-units/ (http://www.lkorailroad.com/circuit-breaker-and-block-detector-final-units/)
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Just like DCC, short protection is not provided by the module in the locomotive (same as it's not provided by the DCC decoder in a locomotive).
In DCC, short protection is provided by the command station and boosters, or by other breakers installed by the modeller on the track bus. In RailPro, short protection is provided by the power supply. The PWR-56 provides short protection by shutting off the track power until the short is removed.
If you used a power supply other than the PWR-56 you would need to ensure it had adequate short protection built in or even better an external breaker, similar to the breakers Alan designed for his LK&O railroad. This is how I'll be doing it.
- Tim, wishing his fingers would warm up so he could type properly!
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Separate breakers have many advantages. 1. They go hand-in-hand with occupancy detection wiring; 2. Doesn't shut down the whole layout; 3. Trip currents can be set for each individual track segment thereby further reducing potential damage; 4. Local proximity to the short eliminates damage potential of capacitive/inductive discharge from the wiring; 4. Clear indication which track segment the short occurred. I could on and on.
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If you don't need the repeater function you can use commercial switch mode power supplies. They are available inexpensively up to 50A. The RailPro radio signal is plenty strong throughout my 28' x 32' layout. Not needing signal repeating I went the SMPS route. Much less expensive and much greater amperage selection available.
Currently I use a 7 amp model ($19.95) which is ample for operating 20-25 Atlas or equiv locomotives @ around 200mA per loco + a little supply headroom. Should the day come I want to run more then I simply swap out the supply for larger unit. The bus wiring is 12 gauge so should be good all the way to 20 amps. That would a be a staggering 100 locos running.
http://www.lkorailroad.com/powering-the-lko-part-i/ (http://www.lkorailroad.com/powering-the-lko-part-i/)
Alan,
Did I miss a link to find the 7 amp power supply?
Thanks.
Jacob
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Posting eBay links is often frowned upon. Don't know if Bill is OK with it here. Search eBay for "Mean Well 15V 7A Power Supply".
Mean Well site is funky. You can't post direct link to pages on the site. Go to www.meanwell.com Search for NES-100-15. That is the power supply I use. Bought mine on eBay. There are many different amperage units available.
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Links - Post links to anything as long as it's railpro related.
Links to eBay in sales groups are frowned upon. This is not a sales group :)
Although if somebody wanted to sell used railpro stuff on here, I would have no objections.
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Posting eBay links is often frowned upon. Don't know if Bill is OK with it here. Search eBay for "Mean Well 15V 7A Power Supply".
Mean Well site is funky. You can't post direct link to pages on the site. Go to www.meanwell.com Search for NES-100-15. That is the power supply I use. Bought mine on eBay. There are many different amperage units available.
Thanks!