RailPro User Group
RailPro => RailPro Specific Help & Discussion => Topic started by: jordanhd87 on December 18, 2022, 10:14:13 AM
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Hi All:
Issue: I am having very erratic behavior with my RailPro locomotives. I'll place them on the track, sometimes they will connect to my HC-2b handheld, sometimes they will not. For example, yesterday I was setting up three locomotives on the track (my "clean" install locmotives, see below). Two of them connected to the handheld, one of them did not. If I tilted that locomotive and placed it back down, it would connect. Tilt it again and place it back down, it would not connect. 50/50 chance. The other two would connect everytime if I followed this same test. So I proceeded to do my run session with just the two locomotives that stayed connected. I MU'ed them together to pull a 29 car train. While running (45 minutes into the running session), the train randomly comes to a screetching halt. My handheld is still connected to them. No warning triangles were displayed. The sounds were still going and never cut out at any point (indicating i did not lose track power pickup). I throttled all the way down, then back up, and it starts moving down the track again. About 5 minutes later, my lead loco becomes unresponsive (lost connection) and would not reconnect to the handheld. This is not the first time this has happened. It happens everytime I try to run my railpro locomotives, "clean" install or "quick" install (again, see below). It continued to run though, it just would not reconnect no matter how many times I tried, I as well tried cycling the power off and on my handheld and still would not reconnect. I had to cut the track power off and back on to get it to reconnect again.
Locomotives: I have 5 LM-4S-G equipped locomotives, Two USA Trains SD70's, One SD40-2, One Aristo Dash9 and One SD45. My USAT locomotives are a "clean install" (stock electronics ripped out, RailPro install from scratch). Aristo units I have used the airwire Adapta-1 board RLD sells to utilize the Aristo/Revo/DCC slot (quick install, I'll call it). I have brushless ball bearing fans installed in the shell as well as Oley Valley mounting brackets with the heatsinks (earlier this year I experienced overheating issues). I have since installed the 1.05 update which supposedly fixes the overheating issues (but now it is too cold outside to confirm). Each locomotive (except for the SD45) have two 8ohm speakers wired in parallel (which sounds amazing).
Layout: I am running outdoors on track power, with a Crest CRE-55465 15 amp power supply (which was designed for use with DCC systems, meaning the output is supposed to be just be clean DC voltage). I have it set to 23v output. My loop is 300 feet long, and anywhere I check along the track I get 23.2 volts. However, I can duplicate the "Cannot Connect" error on my indoor bench which is a different power supply.
Running conditions: My layout is next to a walking trail in our neighborhood and I have it all decorated for the season. On a busy night I constantly have 20-40 people around watching the trains (and yes, the issues seem to happen when there are 40 people around). I run my display for 3-4 hours at a time. The track is pristinely cleaned with an LGB track cleaning locomotive prior to running my railpro locomotives. I also have a few track lit cars, and they do not flicker during the run session (their power pickup is not near as robust as the locomotives) so I do not suspect dirty track being the issue. Temperature outside ranges between 50*f and 30*f (I have not found a correlation with temp and the issue I'm experiencing). I like to run 2-3 locomotives at a time, MU'ed together pulling the same train. Sound volume at 100%. I also have a few locomotives equipped with Revolution. When I run my Revolution locomotives they run flawlessly, for the whole run duration, no issues whatsoever. I also have a 70ft "back and forth" shuttle track running off of a separate power supply, the train carrying a speaker playing Christmas music).
I have called Tim a few times regarding the above, and he has no definitive answers. He claims there's no way it can be the LM-4S-G units or my handheld, that there has to be some other common denominator. I've also spoken with Robby at RLD and he has not experienced this behavior, but has admitted that all of his installs are battery conversions as well. Again, they are behaving this way on two completely different power supplies, both indoors and outdoors. And again, I can run my RC Revolution locomotives and they run absolutely flawless. One thing I have not tried is to go battery powered, but I feel I should not have to do this just to get RailPro to work properly. Also, as a side note, I have done quite a few Revo installs prior to doing RailPro installs, so I am not new at this "RC install" thing. Is anyone else here running an outdoor G gauge layout with railpro locomotives on track power? Do you experience erratic behavior such as this? The next steps (as I see it) to take involve spending more money (either on batteries to go battery power or yet a third power supply to try). Any feedback or ideas you have would be welcome as I am beating my head against the wall and am about ready to give up on RailPro.
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I did some testing with a 24v power drill battery as well as a 4.5amp 20v laptop power supply. Using my bench power supply and SD45 as a tester locomotive, it would sometimes connect to the handheld and sometimes not. Using the battery, it connected every single time. Using the laptop power supply, it intriguingly also connected every single time. I also kept going back to the bench supply in-between, and it would sometimes connect and sometimes not. So it is starting to point to not liking the two main power supplies I have. A buddy is going to send me a USAT 10 amp supply to test with (this is one of the RailPro recommended power supplies). TBD and will update the thread. If it does end up being the supply, wow, RailPro is very finicky and sensitive to incoming power. Why did they not design it to be a bit less sensitive? Again, I have no issues running Revolution equipped locomotives.
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One of my 4 modules will do the occasional issue as well
Power on, select the loco, start the sounds (they work) throttle up And she doesn't move.. the sound changes as it's moving but nothing... Requires a power off and start over... Sometimes while running this same loco will stop moving, but the sounds continue... Requires a power off.... Latest software, batteries are charged. It's just the module.. I feel your frustration
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Sounds like you both need to contact Ring and report the same issue. (again)
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I emailed ring when I first started buying stuff, asking about a sound file... Never bothered to respond, it's been 6 months...........
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Sounds like you both need to contact Ring and report the same issue. (again)
I've spoken with Tim @RailPro a couple of times for probably 2 hrs over the last two weeks. According to him there's not enough evidence that the issue is with the RailPro modules or the heldheld (pointed fingers at everything else but the railpro stuff). He did say I could send the stuff back to him to checkout but "he guarantees that he won't find any issues with it." Not sure how he can say that with absolution, but regardless, he did. His other words were, "no one else has reported this issue...." if there are others, PLEASE call Tim.
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I emailed ring when I first started buying stuff, asking about a sound file... Never bothered to respond, it's been 6 months...........
Pick up the phone. Email is horribly unreliable.
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Does this problem only happen when in close proximity or in line-of-sight to the benchtop and / or Crest supply? Some of the symptoms you describe match a power supply putting out a lot of RFI. A member here had previously come across this one, noticing that things went really strange when a certain power supply he had was line-of-site in between the HC and the LM in the loco.
- Tim
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Does this problem only happen when in close proximity or in line-of-sight to the benchtop and / or Crest supply? Some of the symptoms you describe match a power supply putting out a lot of RFI. A member here had previously come across this one, noticing that things went really strange when a certain power supply he had was line-of-site in between the HC and the LM in the loco.
- Tim
Interesting thought..... outside, the issue seems to occur in random/various places around the layout. Inside, the power supply is within 4 feet of the locomotive. On the bench, the handheld is always set right next to the locomotive (not inbetween the PS and locomotive). Outside, the PS does reside inside of the loop. So depending on where I stand, there may be times the PS is between the loco and handheld. The PS is stored in a weather resistant box trackside, and is about 5 inches off of ground level inside of the box. I'll see if I can dig up a picture. Also, when I get that USAT supply in my hands I'll report if there is any difference in operations.
Edit: here's the best picture I could get of the overall layout. The power supply is in the box circled in red. 20amp 120vac circuit was run to the layout right next to the box.
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I know that you stated that you keep your track clean, which I don't doubt. However there is another culprit.
When I look at that photo, I'm seeing a LOT of track, and the first thing that came to mind was, I hope hes using a Bloody BIG BUS system for that with plenty of droppers and more than one power supply. See the problem is the voltage that we use in model rail. Its bloody WEAK! By that I mean when it comes to long runs of cable and/or track, 12V-24V is pathetic to be a good POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE between POLES (+, -), even if its DCC. The longer the run the higher the voltage needs to be to get the job done plus the bigger the cable required. The funny thing is, the current can go DOWN when this is done. In fact it always does for the same given POWER (WATTS) Rating.
The other better option is to break the long runs down into practical lengths of Cable/Track runs. More power per given length with less loss.
So the question is, how long is a Powered section of the Track/Bus Run that you have per section, (I'm really hoping its in a lot of sections with a lot of droppers) and what size is your main cable bus.
Because if its not suitable for the length of your line, that may very well be your problem.
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I know that you stated that you keep your track clean, which I don't doubt. However there is another culprit.
When I look at that photo, I'm seeing a LOT of track, and the first thing that came to mind was, I hope hes using a Bloody BIG BUS system for that with plenty of droppers and more than one power supply. See the problem is the voltage that we use in model rail. Its bloody WEAK! By that I mean when it comes to long runs of cable and/or track, 12V-24V is pathetic to be a good POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE between POLES (+, -), even if its DCC. The longer the run the higher the voltage needs to be to get the job done plus the bigger the cable required. The funny thing is, the current can go DOWN when this is done. In fact it always does for the same given POWER (WATTS) Rating.
The other better option is to break the long runs down into practical lengths of Cable/Track runs. More power per given length with less loss.
So the question is, how long is a Powered section of the Track/Bus Run that you have per section, (I'm really hoping its in a lot of sections with a lot of droppers) and what size is your main cable bus.
Because if its not suitable for the length of your line, that may very well be your problem.
The loop is 300ft of track. It is all connected with railclamps, which have all been coated with NOALOX before clamping. Power supply is outputting 23.2 volts, it is 23.2 volts at every point of track including the farthest point away from the power supply. I only have one feeder going from the PS to the track. It is a short run (maybe 6 feet of wire or less?). I'll double check but I think I used 12/2 landscaping wire. My thought was, if I got power to the track with as short of a feeder as possible, the track itself is a bigger conductor than the feeder coming from the supply, therefore I'll reduce the drop. If I send feeders to the far sections, the wire I'd be using is a smaller conductor than the rail and I'd end up with bigger drops In the feeders than the rail itself.
Again, I have no issues with Revolution equipped locos or analog locos. No dropouts. No sudden stops. No slowdowns. Only ones I have an issue with are my Railpro locos. If what you suggest is an issue, I'd think I'd be experiencing it with Revolution and analog locos too. In addition, the issues I'm experiencing happen at any spot around my layout, not just the farthest spots.
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I think Gibs might have missed where you said Large Scale. I agree that brass code 332 track, if all connections are lossless, is a very good and large conductor.
You state that voltage is even around the layout. Might I suggest measuring the opposite side of the loop from the power connection when a train is running to prove there is no voltage drop.
I'm in Large Scale but got in before the LM-4 and am all battery power. Never a connection issue so long as loco is in range.
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I get what you're saying in regards to the length of run from your power supply to the track its self, yes the shorter the better. The thing is, your BUS, it should be of a BIGGER Cross Sectional Squared Area than the Cross Sectional Squared area of your track. So looking at the track from the point of view where you see the cross section, the Bus Cable SHOULD be bigger by at least 2 x that surface area. I don't recall if you said you have Brass Track, but I still wouldn't rely on that alone myself personally to supply full power to such a largish track run.
Also relying solely on the track only, to supply the power around the entire layout, not a good idea, I'd be breaking that down into smaller sections with each sections own power supply. I know you state that all your other loco's run fine on the layout, but I'd be more inclined to call that a fluke. I'm thinking the other system may have onboard their circuit boards something akin to a Stay Alive, ergo a few extra capacitors to maintain power through bad sections of track.
The part that does my head in, is that you can repeat this fault inside on the test track at random intervals. Its like the Modules loose signal connectivity for some odd reason, normally I'd say all the above about your track layout and its suffering a small power loss at random moments given how its set up. The only thing I can suggest is add a suitable keep/stay/PMB Alive to one notoriously bad Loco and see if that makes any difference. I'd bet there is one available for G Scale somewhere.
Either that or just temp put a battery in.
PS: The reason I'm suggesting this, is to remove the possibility of a power issue from the equation. If its proven to not be a issue, then you have more information than before to tell Tim.
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You state that voltage is even around the layout. Might I suggest measuring the opposite side of the loop from the power connection when a train is running to prove there is no voltage drop.
Thanks for your input. I do not get a warning triangle saying "low track voltage". In fact, the reading on each locomotives status page in railpro (while I have two to three locos running) shows about a 3 volt drop compared to the static track voltage. I obviously can't read this when the connection to the handheld drops out, but I can say the sound output in all cases continues loud and clear and does not crackle, drop out, or anything. I admittedly have not tested the track voltage with a meter with trains running to confirm the readings the railpro modules are putting out (I will do try that).
@Gibs - the track I am using is code 332 brass. In essence, the track itself is the BUS in this set up. As mentioned above, with the erratic behavior the sound always stays loud and clear and continues with no drop outs, indicating no loss of power below the threshold. Also I run a couple cars that pick up power for lighting - their power pickup is not nearly as robust as the locomotives, and they do not flicker or drop out around the layout either. I do wonder if an additional capacitor would help clean up the incoming power before it goes to the rail pro card though. But I recall Tim asking me if I had anything like that, and suggested that I shouldnt.
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I have no answer to your problem, but think it's 99% your track power, intermittent voltage from the track probably effects the Rail Pro module to function as it should. If it works on battery power 100% of the time then you have your answer, just my personal thoughts on this. I know what I would do if I had a track powered layout outside, change to battery power and be done with it, no track cleaning and no track power connections to deal with.
trainman
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I have no answer to your problem, but think it's 99% your track power, intermittent voltage from the track probably effects the Rail Pro module to function as it should. If it works on battery power 100% of the time then you have your answer, just my personal thoughts on this. I know what I would do if I had a track powered layout outside, change to battery power and be done with it, no track cleaning and no track power connections to deal with.
trainman
If that is the case, then Ring has designed these modules poorly and should not market this unit as being able to run off of track power. I would not have bought RailPro if I knew it couldn't run reliably from track power.
The battery topic is a whole different animal. The way I run and the duration I run, I would have some serious concessions going battery power. I am well aware and well versed on keeping track connections clean and in good conductive shape. I have tools to clean the track thoroughly and easily. Neither one of these things are a drawback in my particular case. However, constantly having to charge batteries, have limited runtime, spend another $100+ per locomotive on batteries, (not to mention finding battery solutions for running rolling stock lighting) are all big drawbacks for me.
The USAT power supply should be here tomorrow. I'll test with it and see if it fixes my issues.
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Ok, just humor me and the rest of us, just hook up a battery temporary to your worst loco and see if it makes any difference. Its just that what you describe your issue as smacks of a power outage glitch, so lets just eliminate the easiest one to check first.
PS: I didn't see the posts above. Just a bit of FYI, Brass is in fact a terrible CONTACT conductor, why, because it will tarnish right before your eyes straight after giving it a good clean/polish. Internally brass is fine, but surface to surface not so flash. Its why its not used in any switching capacity in electrical equipment. More expensive Silver and Gold is used on contact surfaces because it will not Tarnish. Its one of the reasons guys into G Scale go Battery rather than track for power, since brass track is cheaper than whats needed, Stainless Steel Track for outside. Even Aluminium has the same problem as Brass but faster yet again.
Anyway try the new power supply but I'd still be keen to see if a battery powered loco has the same issues. If it doesn't then you will know 100% that its NOT power related but rather a Signal issue with either the Modules or the HC.
Is there any one who has a RailPro set up living close by, you could use their HC to eliminate that as well. They don't even have to be into G scale.
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I have G scale track power outside. I do have stainless steel and I am DCC.
Long ago, DCC decoders would go nuts with the smallest glitch in power, resetting the microprocessor in most cases.
That was 10 years ago, modern decoders no longer have that issue, having internal 5 or 3.5 volt power supplies that are designed to keep the micro alive during short glitches.
The addition of "keep-alive" capacitor banks also help really bad power pickup issues, but I have about 40-60 locos and not one has a keep-alive.
Sounds like the RP unit is sensitive to power glitches, and forcing someone to battery is like turning the clock back 10 years in design. With the overall cost of the electronics, this is an issue that can be easily and economically solved and HAS BEEN solved with other systems.
(It still needs to be proved that the behavior here needs to be "proved" that it is coming from power glitches, maybe the voltage being higher is causing the issue, we had the similar thing in G scale where track voltage is often 24 volts and many DCC manufacturers that "came from" HO had issues with the higher voltage, like SoundTraxx)
Anyway, there is no reason to "force" someone to battery for a deficient design (to be proved).
Greg
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Greg - I completely agree. For what it's worth the LM-4S-G manual states maximum input voltage is 28v, and in parenthesis, absolute maximum 30v. I am well below those values @23.2 volts. Admittedly I do not have the equipment to test for transient voltage spikes, however my brother has access to an oscilloscope which we are going to look at the output on my current power supplies and see if we spot anything odd with the waveform. Also, the USAT supply is "out for delivery" so I should have that in my hands today for testing.
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Hi All,
Alright I got the USAT train power 10 supply and am bench testing my locomotives on it. RP fails to connect 75% of the time if I set the voltage output to 19-20 volts. If I go full power (25v) they were all connecting. Also, reading the voltage input on the handheld, it was right at 24v (to be expected with a small drop from lights and fans running). As I was resetting my full motor current values on all of my locomotives (being that the voltage is higher), after I got it set on my last locomotive I tilted it sideways and put it back on the track. It would not reconnect. I even disconnected the track leads from the power supply and connected them to a 24v battery, and it wouldnt even connect if powered from the battery. Waited 5 minutes, tried powering it again from the battery, and it connects. At this point I don't know what to do other than pull all my modules and send them to Tim.
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Greg
You really didn't get one bit of what I was saying........no surprise there.
Testing issues is a case of elimination. Always start with the easiest and most likely suspect. In this case using a battery to TEST a difference in Power type (Track V's On Board) was/is quick and easy to do and cheap.
Instead hes gone and brought an expensive new Power supply (his choice) that's checking....TRACK POWER only. In the end a battery was still used........I wonder why.
And what has he learnt at the end of the day, well its was more expensive to get a new power supply AND a battery to find out it has power issues ......... from track power as well as battery ......... Silly me.
Jordan
I'm wondering if the Module has an internal CB with an auto reset feature (that's slow to reset) and its this that keeps playing up. I'd suspect it to be a firmware issue if it is and may be a bug from the last update. This sorta thing does happen often with updates, breaks one thing while fixing something else.
Its Ring Ring Time....again.
PS: Was it just that one loco, the last one that played up, or are all the other RP equipped Loco's still doing the same as well.
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Gibs, it is all 5 of my Railpro locomotives that are having connectivity issues. Sometimes one will act up, and the others will test OK. Sometimes a different one will act up, and the previous one will test OK.
Anyways more info after further testing - out of a last ditch effort I have disconnected all of the cooling fans in 3 of the 5 locomotives to take out the possibility of EMI from the fans. They now connect to the handheld every single time. If I use my old bench supply, it still fails connection sometimes. If I use the USAT supply (even at the reduced 19-20 volt setting), it connects every single time on all three of these locomotives. It seems there may have been a dual fold issue - RP being sensitive to certain power supply outputs and well as EMI from cooling fans. I just hope the overheat issues are indeed fixed with v1.05 and I won't need the fans in the summertime. Anyways, they are now passing the test on the bench so I will disconect the fans from the other two and then outside I will go for the next round of tests (when the weather clears up).
The fans causing that much EMI does boggle my mind a bit, only because I know Robby at RLD puts a fan on everyone single one of his installs and he has not encountered this issue yet.
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NOW you tell me you have fans installed....lol. Best cause of RFI is a non suppressed electric motor - its after all one great big spinning magnetic field making thingy (technical term there).
"So why doesn't the on board Loco motor cause issues", because the power supplied to the drive motor is pulsed, Cooling Fan's, eh not so much. The usual cheap and cheerful fix would be to install an RF Choke onto ONE side of the power feed to the suspect electrical motor (fan). You can also use a condenser from an automobile Alternator (same thing really).
Not gonna say its a slam dunk fix, but again its quick, cheap and easy to do.
As to WHY the Module is having an issue with RF, well its also a very small low powered non shielded RF Tx. You could try shielding it, but there is no Antenna so........
If you did want to play around with that just use some alfoil, but then that would negate getting cool air from a cooling fan onto the module, so no RFI to begin with, bit like the Egg V Chicken. lol
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Gibs - check my first post, I mentioned that I had brushless fans installed. That's OK though, I put a lot of details in that post (and subsequent posts), it's tough to keep up with them all!
Anyways, it seems I'm headed the right direction. Next tests will involve going outside. I will test on my existing power supply first, and if I have issues then I will test on the USAT power supply. Due to all of the headaches around this, Ring should mention "DO NOT INSTALL fans" in their install instructions. I even mentioned to Tim that I had them installed and while he didn't think it was the issue, he did recommend disconnecting them because he didn't think they were needed due to the software update.
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*Fingers Crossed*
Lets just hope its something this simple and stupid. (I'd believe stupid).
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Just a gentle reminder for all members to be mindful of what you write. Something that was written in this thread could very well be construed as insulting, which would then be flaming which is not tolerated.
That said, I'm surprised that a modern fan would give RFI grief, that's why I didn't call them out in my earlier post. I have various fans here, I might have to try an experiment. Also, reading back though the posts, a 3 volt drop isn't good. Something is not right as the Crest is supposed to be regulated.
- Tim
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Greg
You really didn't get one bit of what I was saying........no surprise there.
Testing issues is a case of elimination. Always start with the easiest and most likely suspect. In this case using a battery to TEST a difference in Power type (Track V's On Board) was/is quick and easy to do and cheap.
Instead hes gone and brought an expensive new Power supply (his choice) that's checking....TRACK POWER only. In the end a battery was still used........I wonder why.
And what has he learnt at the end of the day, well its was more expensive to get a new power supply AND a battery to find out it has power issues ......... from track power as well as battery ......... Silly me.
Jordan
I'm wondering if the Module has an internal CB with an auto reset feature (that's slow to reset) and its this that keeps playing up. I'd suspect it to be a firmware issue if it is and may be a bug from the last update. This sorta thing does happen often with updates, breaks one thing while fixing something else.
Its Ring Ring Time....again.
PS: Was it just that one loco, the last one that played up, or are all the other RP equipped Loco's still doing the same as well.
Gibs, You don't read so well, read the last sentence in my post...
I completely agree to test with a battery, and eliminate the power supply and pickup contacts.
Greg
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Just a gentle reminder for all members to be mindful of what you write. Something that was written in this thread could very well be construed as insulting, which would then be flaming which is not tolerated.
That said, I'm surprised that a modern fan would give RFI grief, that's why I didn't call them out in my earlier post. I have various fans here, I might have to try an experiment. Also, reading back though the posts, a 3 volt drop isn't good. Something is not right as the Crest is supposed to be regulated.
- Tim
I would be extremely surprised if the fan has brushes... it must be brushless. In any case, the RFI from the locomotive motor itself would be orders of magnitude greater (caused by the much higher current, and it indeed has a commutator and brushes)
By the way, RFI is not only radiated, but can be conducted, i.e. the high frequency noise is on the motor wires also. If you think about it, that is why inductors and capacitors are used, for conducted RFI... they do nothing for real radio waves emanating from a device.... metal shielding is the only thing that works for radiated RFI, conducted RFI needs chokes... (don't get me started in the magnetic fields ha ha)
Greg
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Hi Greg, yes I fully suspect the RFI I'm experiencing is most likely the "conductive" flavor, at least for the locomotives I have shell fans for. My shell fans are drawing from the track power inputs, go through a bridge rectifier (so the fans always turn the same direction), then to the fans. The power going into the RP module comes straight from the track inputs, pre-diode bridge rectifier. I think the shell fans are putting noise on the power input side of the RP module. While the above seems to be true for the 24v fans, some of my locos had 5v fans connected directly to the 5v outputs on the RP module. And even these ones were having communication issues. Explain that one to me...
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Well so far so good. I ran two locos tonight for about 2 hrs. No issues at all. Good connectivity (well, as good as it can be for RailPro). This was using my Crest switching power supply as well. The voltage drop was only about 1 to 1.5 volts while the trains were running. My initial reading of 3 may have been erroneous on my part. So far so good. More running sessions needed to see for certain and to gain my trust back.
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So the brushless fans have an internal oscillator to create the "shifting magnetic field" that is the "replacement" for a commutator and brushes.
It has been noted that some of these electronic circuits can cause electrical noise in sensitive circuits.
Putting an inductor in one of the power leads to the fan could solve the issue if the RP module is sensitive to conducted rfi.
If the RP module is sensitive to radiated rfi, then you need shielding.
There are simple methods to determine which (if this is the issue) is causing the issue.
Do some more verification that disconnecting the fan solves the issue, then I'd be happy to advise on simple step by step to solve the issue and keep the fan.
Greg
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I did, before you edited it.
Stand by my statement, pity you can't.
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Uhh... Gibs, are you talking to me? I was not talking to you, last response was several days ago, and don't know what your problem is.
Back to the issue, if it's verified that the little brushless fan causes enough noise, it's a sad situation, radiated or conducted.
It would be good to find out what the sensitivity is, and correct it.
Many DCC setups use these fans and they work with no issues.
Greg
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Well for just another data point I just did a fan experiment. The hardware is obviously not the same but what we're testing for is.
I put an 80mm brushless DC fan right next to an LM-2S. Testing with the fan powered by a battery (radiated RFI) and powered by the same PWR-56 as the LM-2S (conducted RFI) presented no issues. It connected every time and responded correctly to commands.
I have a 40mm fan here somewhere. If I can find it I'll test that one too.
- Tim
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The problem with these fans, is they are almost all "no name" products, and can vary wildly.
References to interference from brushless fans:
https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/114069-motor-fan-interference.html
file:///C:/Users/greg.GE/Desktop/emi-emc-umf-dc-fans.pdf
https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/electrical-interference-from-case-fan-causes-speaker-hiss.620400/
Tons of examples on the net.
Again, different fans, different problems.
Not at all unusual. Google it and see how many hits you get "brushless fan interference"
Greg
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Tim, I'm beginning to suspect "conducted" RFI, one line of reasoning is that the RP modules have not been shown to have any issues with motor RFI, so radiated RFI would seem to not be a factor.
Conducted RFI through the motor is most likely handled. But put the RFI into the INPUT of the module (battery connected to both RP module and fan) could be an issue.
As I said, the electronics in these cheap brushless fans varies wildly (have you ever opened a fan labelled "ball bearing" and found no ball bearings? I have)
Anyway, let's hear from Jordan. I would suggest he put an inductor on the fan power lead, that should zap conducted RFI if that is the issue.
Greg
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Again, now with the fans removed, I don't have any issues running my Railpro locomotives with power fed directly from my CRE-55465 power supply at 23v output to the rails. I've done a few running sessions now, with a mix of my 5 railpro locomotives, for a total of about 8 hours with no issues. If I try running my power supply through my Revo trackside super unit (linear) set to full output to the tracks, I do have issues with my Railpro locomotives losing connection but still running. If I run straight from my power supply (fused) to the rails, no issues with connection. I suspect RP's comms module is VERY finicky with incoming power, since I'm only losing connectivity but the train continues to run (it may jerk to a halt and take off again, but then it keeps running at the last setting and I have to kill the track power to get it to stop). Anyways, my brother and I are doing some testing with a scope, have more to do. But at least I know how to get my Railpro locomotives to run reliably for the time being, even if the root cause is not fully pinpointed.
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Just a wild guess here, but since your Revo Trackside receiver uses RF to communicate with the remote, and RailPro uses RF to communicate between loco and handheld, I suspect that radio interference is causing your "Can't Connect".
Seems to me a simple DPDT switch setup would allow you to quickly switch the Revo trackside out of the circuit connecting the track directly to the power supply.
Did you previously mention that the Revo Trackside receiver was in the power supply circuit? I saw were you said several Revo equipped locos, but I assumed that meant they have on-board Revo receivers powered by straight DC on the track.
In any case, I'm glad you got it sorted out to the point you can reliably run your Railpro locos.
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JRad - that's exactly how I have it set up (on a DPDT) which is why I didn't mention it before, because I was getting failures running straight off of the power supply (until I disconnected the cooling fans in the locomotives). I tested it with the Revo trackside unit for kicks and giggles. I don't suspect radio frequency interference being the issue with that, but rather something on the power input side that RailPro doesn't like.
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So Jordan, are you going to try some small RFI filters on the fan power leads?
https://www.amazon.com/BOJACK-3-5mm-0-8mm-Ferrite-Inductors/dp/B09C25PPBG/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=Ferrite+Bead&qid=1672549215&sr=8-5
https://www.amazon.com/Hanzou-Ferrite-Sleeve-3-5x5x1-5mm-Toroidal/dp/B09CKP2D32/ref=sr_1_197?keywords=Ferrite+Bead&qid=1672549481&sr=8-197
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Hi Greg,
I'm going to wait until it warms up a bit and see if I need these fans after all. I was having the overheat issues before v1.05 was released, but wasn't quite warm enough after the update for me to put it through the ringer and gain its trust. If I end up needing the fans I will play around with RFI filtering.