Post by: Tom on January 10, 2021, 09:58:38 AM
I am now faced with something a little more complicated and would like some insight if anyone is willing to provide it. The problem is a Proto 2000 with something called QSI Quantum System, which I had not seen before. The cleaver thing about it is that one can run it on DC and do about all the things that can be done using DCC – whistle, bells and more.
The problems (see picture attached):
1) I would like to preserve the original wiring connections so as to allow easy reinstallation of the original decoder. And more importantly, it will also make it much less likely that I will ruin the whole thing. This means I need two 2 pin, one 4 pin and one 8 pin receptacles with wires protruding. I have seen something on internet called JST-2 which looks like it might work, but do not know for sure. Are there 2, 4 and 8 pin receptacles that can be attached from which to run the wires to an LM-3S?
2) If you look at the picture there are 13 wires that need to be attached to an LM-3S. The photo attached identifies all the wires. I understand how the 2 going to the speakers will attach, but that leaves 11 wires to attach to a 9 pin LM-3S. Which 2 are not needed, or where do they get attached to the LM-3S, the 6 pin side?
3) The locomotive has a MARS light. There is one white wire and two yellow wires going to the locomotive, which seems to be one extra wire, except that does there not have to be two wires running to each of these bulbs – in that case there is one wire short? Does anyone know which wires are what so they can be connected correctly to an LM-3S correctly?
4) Any idea if the light bulbs in this locomotive need to be replaced with 12V bulbs?
Post by: nodcc4me on January 10, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Post by: G8B4Life on January 11, 2021, 05:41:25 AM
Are there 2, 4 and 8 pin receptacles that can be attached from which to run the wires to an LM-3S?
Without knowing exactly which JST series is used on the quantum board I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. As far as I know all the JST connectors that look like what's in your picture are wire-to-board connectors (plug with wires, socket on a circuit board). There are no sockets with wires that I know of.
The only way to keep the existing wiring and plugs in that case would be to make your own motherboard with the correct JST sockets on it, to which you'd solder a standard 9 pin harness to in the correct spots etc.
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2) If you look at the picture there are 13 wires that need to be attached to an LM-3S. The photo attached identifies all the wires. I understand how the 2 going to the speakers will attach, but that leaves 11 wires to attach to a 9 pin LM-3S. Which 2 are not needed, or where do they get attached to the LM-3S, the 6 pin side?
You have to trace out which wire does what on the model. On the board that the 8 pin connector is on there are letters above (and numbers below) where the 8 pin connector wires are soldered onto the board. The letters might give you a clue.
It also appears that a blue wire has been cut off from the 8 pin connector. I wonder why?
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3) The locomotive has a MARS light. There is one white wire and two yellow wires going to the locomotive, which seems to be one extra wire, except that does there not have to be two wires running to each of these bulbs – in that case there is one wire short? Does anyone know which wires are what so they can be connected correctly to an LM-3S correctly?
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the wire colours on that board in any way complies with the NMRA wire colour standard, QSI or Life-Like (or whoever they are owned by now) would not be the first manufacturer to totally ignore it. My first guess is that the white wire is the common and the yellow wires are the switched outputs (one each for the headlight and MARS light). Again, that is a guess, you need to try and trace where they go.
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4) Any idea if the light bulbs in this locomotive need to be replaced with 12V bulbs?
Absolutely no idea on that one.
- Tim
Post by: Tom on January 11, 2021, 08:08:20 AM
Thank you for comments, always comprehensive as usual. Looks like I have some plowing to do on this one. I was hoping those connectors were somewhat common things, but have not been able to find on internet (except JST-2 pin) let alone confirm they are compatible. Your comments about the letters close by the 8 pin connector may prove helpful. Thanks again.
Post by: atsfguy on January 11, 2021, 10:51:54 AM
Check micromark.com. They may have miniature connectors. I saw some on a site a few months ago but didn ‘t mark the site. I will do some digging and try to find it. If successful, I will PM you.
Cecil
Post by: atsfguy on January 11, 2021, 01:44:13 PM
Micro Mark does have miniature connectors but they require soldering with a small iron. They come in strip form and you cut off the number of pins/ sockets that you need.
I have never purchased these so other than everything I have bought at Micro Mark has been quality merchandise, I can’t say how good or easy to work with these are.
I hope this helps you.
Cecil
Post by: G8B4Life on January 12, 2021, 07:36:12 AM
I was hoping those connectors were somewhat common things, but have not been able to find on internet (except JST-2 pin) let alone confirm they are compatible.
They are actually more common than you'd think but you have to look in the right places, your not going to find them at the local electronics store for instance. The big electronic places like DigiKey, Farnell, element14 etc sell them, usually in packs of say 10, 50, 100 and so on.
To find out what you have you'll need to do some measuring and reading. It's likely to be either the SH (1.0mm pitch spacing) or ZH (1.5mm pitch spacing) series. JST (http://www.jst.com/home21.html (http://www.jst.com/home21.html)) has spec sheets for everything so it shouldn't be hard to work out which connectors they are.
Once you've identified which connector it is there's a few of options (I though of an extra couple):
- If they are the 1.0mm pitch SH series then all you can really do is to make your own adapter motherboard (SH socket to ZH plug).
- If they are the 1.5mm pitch ZH series then you might be able to get the 9 pin plug and pop the connectors out of the 8 pin and insert them into the 9 pin (you'd have to reverse the procedure to put it back to original) or looking on JST's website I found this: http://www.jst-mfg.com/product/detail_e.php?series=289 (http://www.jst-mfg.com/product/detail_e.php?series=289). This is a wire to socket connector series that will accept the ZH series plug. You could possibly make a custom socket to plug adapter harness however crimping the pins to the wires is "not a relaxing task" apparently.
- Tim
Post by: Alan on January 12, 2021, 09:05:07 AM
What we mere mortals commonly call an adapter harness is known in the trade as wire-to-wire. Start your JST search there.
As last resort you can solder individual wires to the pins of a board receptacle (wire-to-board header) and cover each pin with heat shrink.
Post by: faithie999 on January 13, 2021, 06:53:04 AM
is it the 8-pin plug shown in your photo that you're trying to find?
if so, is it the same thickness and pin spacing as the 9-pin connector used on the LM's?
Post by: Tom on January 13, 2021, 09:10:56 AM
Thank you for the comments, I will keep at it.
I am trying to find 2, 4 and 8 pin adaptors, the ones that are on the decoder now, so I can wire them up to Ring WH-9 and WH-6 wiring harnesses. I would then plug them into the other end of the 2, 4, and 8 pin plugs attached to the tender. That way I do not destroy that wiring, and the decoder could easily be reinstalled. I have not attempted to measure the pin pitch yet.
I had found the Digi-Key web site a few days ago and actually received a nice response from a sales rep. It helped a little with some specifics like pitch that Tim mentioned that need to be figured out as well as two links. Digi-Key’s products listing is beyond extensive.
Post by: Alan on January 13, 2021, 09:36:34 AM
Once you find your connector then shop the electronics suppliers. I made a short list of the popular suppliers on this post: https://rpug.pdc.ca/index.php?topic=727.0 (https://rpug.pdc.ca/index.php?topic=727.0)
Post by: trainman605 on January 13, 2021, 11:09:18 AM
trainman
Post by: Tom on January 27, 2021, 05:46:45 PM
First question, can these even be soldered by a human?
Second question: There would be 7 wires from 8 pin connector and two wires running from each of the 4 pin and two 2 pin connectors, a total of 13, going to the Ring 6 pin and 9 pin connectors. I think the Ring connectors are 30 GA, but the wires running to pickups on tender are bigger (see first photo). Does that matter?
Third question, if we get this far: there are two different pin shapes (see photo) bent and straight except for the 8 pins which are both bent, but done so differently. For either soldering, or putting together and then separating the connectors again, would one be better than the other?
Any comments will be appreciated, especially before I buy any pointy tipped soldering iron and throw more money away on this. The whole idea is to preserve the original wiring connections to make the reinstallation of the original decoder simple. Once set up, though, it might make installation or swapping out of the LM easier too. Right now I have an LM-2S available.
Post by: nodcc4me on January 27, 2021, 07:01:51 PM
The wire size shouldn’t matter. I think they use very thin wire to the trucks for more flexibility but they are not the easiest to work with.
The direction of the pins isn’t crucial and you may find that soldering them and keeping them from contacting one another may be easier if you bend every other pin.
Invest in a small soldering iron. It will get plenty of use. I use a fairly old Wahl that takes multiple tips and is rechargeable. Other guys may have different preferences.
Post by: Alan on January 27, 2021, 07:41:21 PM
Post by: Tom on February 25, 2021, 05:11:24 PM
I now have all the supplies, tools and components: I just need to find out what to do with them. The locomotive has up front so to say, a motor, a headlight and a MARS light. If there is anything else I have no idea what it might be.
See the attached wiring diagram. It has the numbered labels that are on the circuit board from which wires run into the locomotive. Given the labels (I do not know if the numbers mean anything) I think the M+ and M- are going to the motor, COM is the common + wire, and FL- is the front light. That leaves MATHS, R+ and L- unknown as to where these wires go and what they are for.
Does anyone have any ideas as to which one is the MARS light and what the other two are for? If I figure out which one is the MARS light can I just forget about the other two?
I am thinking that the only way to run the tender light is to put a splice in the Ring blue common wire and run one to the COMM on the circuit board gong to the locomotive and one to the tender light. Is this correct?
Post by: nodcc4me on February 25, 2021, 07:12:27 PM
Post by: Tom on February 28, 2021, 03:44:26 PM
That solves one part of the problem. I have still not figured out what the wires attached to the circuit board labeled as MTHS, R+ and L- are for, let alone which one might be for the MARS light. But I have come up with another idea you might be able to weigh in on.
The QSI Quantum System decoder in the locomotive works either with DC or DCC. When operating on DC the lights and sounds (there many) operate when power is applied. Two other more or less essential sounds are the whistle and bell. These are activated by manipulating the power pack directional switch in certain sequences and usually has to be done quickly to avoid losing power. Both the LM-3S and the original decoder will fit in the tender and quite likely a KA if needed. The only things that might cause a power loss to the decoder would be the HC-2 or the LM-3S.
I am thinking that I can connect the Ring WH-9 wiring harness red and black wires to the wires coming from the track power pickups and the orange and gray wires to the 2 Pin connector on the decoder circuit board (where the power gets to the decoder). RailPro is DC, so this way I would be controlling power to the original decoder via the HC-2 using only the directional button and the throttle; basically operating the locomotive in DC mode. The original decoder would not know the difference, right?
Tom
Post by: nodcc4me on February 28, 2021, 04:32:09 PM
Post by: faithie999 on February 28, 2021, 05:15:46 PM
Post by: Carter on March 01, 2021, 07:15:58 AM
LM-3S wire diagram.
personally, I would not want to re-install the original board. so with that said cut the wires to all plugs 1/2-3/4 inch long remove board and wire in LM-3S, soldering the wires. To re-install original board, cut leads to LM-3S remove re-solder the wires leads to the original board leads. no trying to fine their mate plugs and wiring that to an LM-3S.
My 2 cents. carter
Post by: Carter on March 01, 2021, 07:26:04 AM
Carter
Post by: trainman605 on March 01, 2021, 09:20:44 AM
trainman
Post by: KPack on March 01, 2021, 12:31:21 PM
And faithie999, I would concur with the others.....it is far easier to just remove the factory board and hardwire in the LM-3S. Far less potential for issues as well (signal loss, power interruption, etc). The less components you have between the LM-3S and the end of the wire, the better. Cleaner is simpler.
-Kevin
Post by: Tom on April 14, 2021, 02:03:12 PM
CONTROLLING DECODER WITH LM-2S – Locomotive runs fine as originally configured using PWR-56 (though no control of speed or direction) with or WITHOUT the 2 pin power pickup attached to the decoder in either direction with all lights and sounds functioning properly. With an LM-2S inserted between either power pickup (loco or tender) there were some wiring connections that resulted in shorts and some where nothing happened and no shorts. With two other wire configurations I was able to control only the locomotive speed and direction with the LM-2S, sounds and lights did not function.
Finally, with the wires attached as shown, the locomotive functioned properly as it does on DC powered track with all lights and sounds functioning properly using the LM-2S for feeding power – for about 10 seconds. After a few minutes it will work again for about 10 seconds. When it stops working the Info. message is “Motor Over Peak Current.” The motor works fine with PWR-56 only, but with the LM-2S installed the LM-2S thinks there is a motor problem. I upped the previous MFLC setting on the LM-2S manually from 190 to 400, and it now runs well with all the locomotive sounds and lights. The loco sounds are probably better than Rings, with auto break squealing and reduced chuffing sound when slowing down, among others.
Unfortunately the whistle and bell do not work. The bell and whistle in DC mode are turned on and off by reversing very quickly the directional control so as not to lose power while doing so. Changing the directional control on the HC-2 loses power long enough to stop these functions. Probably will run for a while as is just to get the feel of it and then remove the original decoded and install the LM-2S.
LM-2S INSTALLATION – I do not think that I should have a problem wiring in the LM-2S, or a 3S if one of those is needed to get Heavy Steam sound with one exception: do I need resistors for the three lights? Can anyone tell from looking at the original photo I posted earlier whether resisters are needed or not? There are not any of the typical looking resistors one buys, but there may be something on the decoder that someone more experience than I would recognize as one.
Thanks for any comments.
Post by: Tom on April 15, 2021, 08:50:42 PM
Never mind the question: I have found out that the tiny rectangular black things on the decoder are likely to be resistors. In worst case it appears that installing a resistor will not hurt, and if lights do not work they can always be removed.