RailPro User Group
RailPro => RailPro Specific Help & Discussion => Topic started by: Josephbw on May 03, 2016, 07:36:43 PM
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I MU'd 2 engines together to test that function, and everything went OK until I started them around my test loop. My No. 1 engine was pulling No.2 and they seemed to be fighting each other. So then I got another engine (No. 3), and paired it with No. 1, and it was a little better matchup, but No.1 was still trying to pull away from No. 3 also. All 3 engines have had the full load current test done at initial setup.
Just for kicks I tried to MU all 3 engines together, but that didn't happen, I got the error message "Maximum number of locomotives are in use" when I tried to select the 3rd engine for the consist.
Then I redid the load current test and these are the same results (within a few mA's) as I had originally. No. 1 was 330mA, No.2 was 560mA, No.3 was 530 mA. These are all three brand new Atlas engines with less than 30 minutes on each one.
It's apparent that I'm going to have to adjust the acceleration and speed for at least two of them. But my question is, is there a limit on how much power the engines can draw in a consist? I was approaching 1-1/2 amps with this combo.
Thanks, Joe
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Try breaking in the locos by themselves real good before consisting. New locos need some time on the rails for the brushes to seat well and the gear sets to smooth out. I wouldn't be surprised to see the two 500mA engines come down as they get some track miles on them.
For the second part, electrical draw of the total consist is limited only by your power supply's ability to provide sufficient voltage/amperage (wattage) and your wiring to get it there (minimum voltage drop). The modules don't care and are not affected by other locos power needs.
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Are your modules and controller up to date with the latest software? RP can control 6 locomotives at once, singularly or MU'd so it seems strange to see that message, unless you had another MU operating which it doesn't sound like you did.
I'd also try letting the loco's run by themselves for a while as well. Because our models are not examples of fine precision mechanical engineering we usually do have to wear them out a bit first to bed them in.
It may also be just plain that the loco's don't like working together (even real one's have this problem sometimes). Like speed matching I believe that RP's load sharing can only go so far to compensate for characteristics like motor speed and gear ratios; too far different and load sharing probably won't work as well as expected. Adjusting the acceleration and speed might have to be done.
- Tim
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As stated, run the locomotives first forwards and backwards for a while to break them in. 500 mah for an Atlas seems high to me. Most of my Atlas locos are down in the 300's, with one or two around 200.
As far as the maximum locos, I wonder if you had another active consist that you weren't aware of? I don't know if having other locos consisted but not actively controlled makes a difference. Never really tested that. Un-MU everything and try it again.
I have two locomotives that are a bit more picky when it comes to MU'ing. Even Railpro has it's limitations of what can be done within the bounds of model locomotives. However, there are ways to help with these rare outliers. One of my 'problem' locomotives was actually an Atlas that runs incredibly smooth and draws very little current. It liked to push/pull other locomotives around. The fix was to artificially set the full load current. To do this you open the full motor load current setting, then when it asks to set it automatically select "no". You will then be able to move the full motor load current setting using the wheel to whatever you want. In this case I raised the load current higher, to be closer to what most of my other locomotives are. Works much better now with no pulling/pushing. I haven't seen any deleterious effects of manually adjusting the load current.
The other locomotive is a highly modified Athearn with a Kato drive which doesn't quite fit perfectly with the athearn drivetrain. To get it to work I had to put more pressure on the athearn dogbones, which increased the total resistance in the drivetrain. The motor runs smoothly, so it seemed to give a lower reading on the automatic load current set than what it actually was. It would run great with an indentically modified locomotive, but then with others it struggled (was drug around when it was the follower). Artificially adjusting the full motor load current to a higher setting solved the problem. I believe the higher setting is more accurate for that locomotive, based on the increased resistance in the drivetrain.
Try it out and see if that solves your problem.
-Kevin
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I have had the same problem as the OP.
Seems like now I don't have it.
It felt really "random" at that moment.
Antoine
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback. Yesterday wasn't a good day. I was working on my paint booth and managed to shoot a 1-1/4" brad into my finger with my pneumatic nail gun. It's all swollen up and throbbing and kept me up a lot last night. I still have to do a lot of cleanup in preparation for the arrival of my brother and his 2 boys Friday. He'll be here for about a week so I may not have the time to work in the basement for a while. When I do get the time, I'll let you know the outcome.
Thanks again,
Joe
PS. it sucks getting old, forgetful, and clumsy. :(
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PS. it sucks getting old, forgetful, and clumsy. :(
Hey Joe, I resemble that. ;D
Sorry to hear about your injury. That must have been extremely painful.
The only time I have had one engine pulling on another is when I forgot to set the direction of the second or third engine. I'm sure you thought of that, as it would be very apparent.
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Hope your injury heals soon. In my old age fumbling, Several years ago I ran a 1/8 drill bit into a finger. Not funny :-X
The first time I tried to link two locos together I had the same problem as you have. After messing with them for a while, I decided to run them independently for a while before linking them again. That seemed to do the trick as I have never had this problem since. Both locos were Atlas Yellow box GP-40's that were at least 25 years old but never had been run.
Mel
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Hi
Problem re-occured yesterday, again with new locomotive in the consist. 2 Kato SD40, same gearing, same road number (I renumber one, don't worry) Basically, the same product. Both running à 290 MaH.
Symptoms: Jerky, one pulling more than the other. Vice versa. Slowing down, then back to speed with an acceleration surge. Once stopped and knob turned to 0,00%, one of the loco was still at 9% current, making it pull alone when direction switched, motor still humming after 0,00% got me intrigued so I checked and it was at 9%. Then, all of a sudden, one of the other loco direction was "mixed up" When on forward, it would go backward, like if I had switched the gear direction, but obviously did not, and then, it automatically went back to normal.
Very odddddddd. I felt like losing control. Which is a no no no.
ideas?
Antoine
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Antoine,
Just have to check, all the modules have the same version of the software in them (and HC software up to date)? I don't know if using different versions of the module software could cause issues like this but it's worth asking.
Your description of doing strange things suddenly almost sounds like something interfering with the signal and the module gets confused, though I see this as quite unlikely. Might be an idea to set the motor current to a higher value instead of using the auto reading on the new loco
This could be a Ring Engineering question unfortunately, especially with the unusual "reverse gearing". Never had that one here before.
- Tim
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Well, I think they're all LM-2S factory version. They are certainly not up to date for one main reasons. When I try to update them it says "programmer started" and then nothing happens. Can someone tell me how to update?
As for interference, Maybe the smart TV? the wireless phone? could it be dirt near the track (1/2 inch away?)(I use real sifted dirt, maybe it has tiny magnetic things in it...?, could it be that? I use woodland scenics ballast for track tho.) I have no cellphone.
The locos run fine when not consisted, very smooth.
Antoine
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Antoine, do you have any other locomotives that you can consist either of these two Katos with, one at a time and see if the problems persist? Although interference could possibly cause this erratic behavior, as Tim stated, it is unlikely because RP uses spread spectrum technology, which limits interference problems.
I'm also thinking a setting could have something to do with this. Try setting your acceleration, deceleration and start speed to default on both engines.
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I'll mention this only because it happened to me and I was able to recreate the problem on demand.
Whenever a switch mode power supply was in, on nearly in, the direct line of sight between a loco and the controller I would lose control of the loco, it became a runaway. Just prior to losing control it would often act erratically speed-wise.
I had a loop of track setup to break in new locomotives. Originally I used a wall wart to power it. Everything was fine. Then I switched to a SMPS. It was positioned next to the loop. On occasion I would lose control. On one occasion I noticed the SMPS was directly between me and the loop. The loco lost control when it passed behind the SMPS. I moved over so the SMPS was not between me and the loop. No loss of control. I found that I could force loss of control by where I was standing relative to the SMPS. Why the RF signal cared whether or not the power supply was between the controller and the loco is beyond me but it most definitely did.
I know what you are thinking - was the power supply properly grounded? Yes.
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I sent an email to Tim Ring the other day and got a reply this morning in regards to the problem of "Maximum number of locomotives are in use". I received this response this morning.
Hi Joe,
I am sure there is nothing wrong with either HC. You get a 'Max. locos in use' when your HC is actively controlling more than 12 locos. Although you can have dozens of locos loaded in the HC you can only control up to 12 at a time with a single HC. The HC automatically removes unused locos form the actively controlled list. However, to get the HC to automatically remove an unused loco it has to be at speed 0.0% for more than 10 seconds before you turn off the HC and the track power. If you don't do this the loco can stay active in the HC active loco list and can eventually give you a 'Max. locos in use'. To start from scratch you can press the reset button on the back of the HC that is reporting this (that will clear the locos in use list). Then be sure before you turn the layout off to set all speeds to 0.0% and wait over 10 seconds before powering off the HC and layout.
Please let us know your results because we are very interested in happy customers.
Thank you for contacting Ring Engineering!
So apparently there is a 12 loco limit in a consist. There are a lot of gotcha's that should be included in the manual, and this is one of them. I will send a positive report back to Tim, and also a suggestion for a manual update. BTW, I did what was suggested and it works like a charm. :) I have also been running the 3 unit consist together pulling 30 cars plus 2 dummy engines and a caboose around my test loop whenever I'm down in the basement where I can keep and eye on it. It does seem to be smoothing out and they are playing together much better now.
Joe
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I was not aware of the 10 second power-off delay Joe. Thanks for posting it. Glad you got your problem resolved.
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I don't think anyone was aware of the 10 second power off delay. Another useful titbit that one. I believe the 12 loco limit will be "overall running at the same time", whether singularly or one consist of 12, or two consists of 6, or a consist of 6 and 6 singles. You get the idea.
That looks like a Mean Well SMPS in the pic Alan? Mean Well is a decent brand so bad RFI is a bit concerning as RailPro is supposed to be able to cope with interference to pass FCC certification. Knowing you have other SMPS powering the layout I guess those one's haven't created any issues? I might try the "directly in the way test" myself tomorrow as I have a Mean Well SMPS which I got to power my future layout.
Antoine,
As the loco's run fine singularly but have strange issues when MU'd this has become a bit more perplexing. Did you try raising the motor current manually or reseting the modules and see if it helped? With the updating the modules software problem you have, I can't remember but have you outlined the steps you took on here? We might be able to help walk you through it if we know what steps you took. The current LM-2S software version is 1.05 which you can check against the module info screen.
- Tim
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I will try raising the motor current option manually, but is this something I must do until I get the best response or there is a setting you recommend?
Also, for the updates I will try again.
For fun, Here are those two Kato SD40. (painted this week-end)
(http://s32.postimg.org/ryev8fm8l/13248592_1033459060055923_4344451147941718737_o.jpg)
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Great info here, thanks Joe, and Alan, and others!
BTW, as I recall there is a real world limit of 8 locos in an active consist. Other locos can be setup as inactive trailers, but a real control stand can only control 8 units. (I'll have to find the thread where I read this)
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That looks like a Mean Well SMPS in the pic Alan?
It is.
All are mounted on my "power central" now. It is well above and behind the layout so there are no interference issues.
(http://www.lkorailroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/100_6486.jpg)
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I do like "Power Central" Alan, nice neat install.
Sorry Antoine, I can't give a recommended setting or anything on the level to try raising the current to, I've only done it once but as I only have a 3' test track I can't say if it worked for me or not so I was simply repeating what others have done before to try and get new loco's to play nice. Hopefully one of the others whose has done it can chime in and make a suggestion on a level to set it to, all I can say is you might try raising it to to the maximum.
- Tim
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Yesterday I also notice a delay, maybe 1 or 2 seconds before reaction on the one of the constsed loco. Like one is answering fast, the other slow, maybe that's why the two aren't able to work well together. They run fin when speed is stable, but as soon as I touch the knob to adjust speed, one starts reacting faster and the other reacts later.
Any thoughts? maybe that's causing the problem.
Antoine
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One may have greater driveline friction. They are China made toys after all. ;D
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Antoine - Are you pulling a train with these two locos or are they just running light? If they are running light (two locos and no cars behind them) then oftentimes they will not run perfectly smooth. If you are pulling a train, especially a heavy one, then the load sharing capability actually has something to share. The locomotives will run much better pulling a load. Without a load there isn't much for the MU/load-sharing function to go off of, and you can get that "bucking" you described. It can be more prevalent around 18% power, then smooths off once you are in the 20's. Why it occurs more at that point I'm unsure of. I think at that point the load-sharing switches from a low-speed function to a high-speed fucntion and at 18% the transition can be a bit rough with certain locomotives.
I have a couple locos that will buck at 18--20% when they are not pulling a train. After that they are fine. With a train behind them they run perfectly at all speeds.
Regarding the updating of modules....check the module's software version by tapping the info button on the locomotive screen (the one that takes you to the real-time info page with track voltage, temp, etc). At the bottom of the page it will tell you the software version currently installed on the module. When you update the software on a module the screen will say "Programmer Started" and show an exit button at the bottom. "Programmer Started" means the update was successful. Exit the page and check the version on the module to confirm. Updating the software version is usually very quick.
-Kevin
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Yesterday I also notice a delay, maybe 1 or 2 seconds before reaction on the one of the constsed loco. Like one is answering fast, the other slow, maybe that's why the two aren't able to work well together. They run fin when speed is stable, but as soon as I touch the knob to adjust speed, one starts reacting faster and the other reacts later.
Any thoughts? maybe that's causing the problem.
Antoine
Antoine, is there any chance that you changed the momentum in one engine and not the other? Just a thought I had while reading your post.
Joe
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Kevin pinpoints something. It does the "bucking" with no cars to pull, but it sill does it a bit whith around 8 cars behind. You're right around 20% everything is gone.
I have wrote to Ring engineering about this maybe he has a solution. I hope it is not a defect LM-2S.
I haven't changed any momentum. All locos are still on "automatic max current setting". I don't even know how to change momentum.
Thanks for your help
Antoine
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Interesting, this video from 2014 mentions the bucking problem...
I had not seen this video before.
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I had forgotten about that video, one of the first ones I saw when researching RailPro way back when Jacob was first posting about it on the Free-mo group.
The prototype does buck like in the video, especially when starting off. What will make the problem appear worse or better is the choice of couplers. Kadee's with there large amount of slack in the jaws, as used in the video, will make it look very bad. Like a few others here I use Sergents and even though I've seen the bucking it is not anywhere near as bad looking due to the very small amount of slack.
- Tim
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I use Sergents as well and I feel they make a difference as Tim said. The very small amount of play in the Sergents allows the locomotives to feel a constant source of drag, whereas with Kadees there is so much slack/bunching back and forth that it can make the locos work hard to compensate for it.
Regardless, running light will usually cause some bucking and that is normal. It usually isn't bad until you reach ~18% power, where it becomes more noticeable, then goes away at higher power. Run a train behind the locomotives and you will little to no bucking at all.
-Kevin
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I solved my problem.
I set acceleration and deceleration to 8. Ring engineering support otld me values like 4 and 8 usually work best. Also, One of the loco had a loose wire messing with drive. Now they are both working like a charm.
:)
Me happy.
Antoine
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Excellent News Antoine!