RailPro User Group
RailPro => RailPro Specific Help & Discussion => Topic started by: KPack on October 11, 2016, 05:09:40 PM
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In conversations with Tim I've learned that Ring Engineering has many new high-quality recordings in their possession, and that work is beginning to create new prime mover files. This will be welcome news to all of us diesel users, as the current Railpro prime mover files leave a lot to be desired.
Confirmed upcoming releases (no idea on release window...could be a while):
-GE Evolution 12-GEVO (for ES44 series) (already in beta, but got put on the back-burner to focus on hardware...HC-2 revisions and CI-1)
-GE Evolution 12-GEVO-T4 (for ET44 series)
-GE 7FDL-16 (Dash 9, AC4400
-EMD 710-G3B (SD70MAC, SD70, SD75)
-EMD 710-G3C-T2 (SD70Ace)
Unconfirmed but hinted at:
-EMD 16-645 Roots
-EMD 16-645E3
-EMD 16-567
These take a while to do, so I wouldn't expect them to be released quickly. However, it is nice to know that we have some good, high-quality sounds coming our way. From what I've heard of the GEVO beta the rest of these recordings should be awesome.
-Kevin
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YAY YAY YAY ! ! !
I can't wait. Now if only the 645's were at the top of the list :(
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Better EMD 645 files are great news, but sad that there are no Alco's on the list (still dreaming of a 251...)
Also would love a UA Turbo Train so I can module up my Rapido Turbo. Are there any instructions out there on making your own recordings for RailPro?
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Now if only the 645's were at the top of the list
The 645E3 is at the top of my list, that's for sure. I have SD40-2's that really need the right sound.
Better EMD 645 files are great news, but sad that there are no Alco's on the list (still dreaming of a 251...)
Just because I don't have it on the list doesn't mean that Ring doesn't have recordings of it. I have confirmed only the ones listed above, and read between the lines on the others. I didn't ask anything about Alco's, as I don't model them, but it's possible that they've obtained recordings of those as well.
-Kevin
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Tim did indicate to me some time ago that he did have excellent new recordings of multiple version of the EMD 645. So yes they are coming.
Be patient Billy, be patient. :)
As for the turbo, Ian, did you try the GTEL Turbine?
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I would also like to see the new 645's. I have been asking Tim for an Alco 244 (PA-1) for a couple of years now. There are still a bunch of us who model the 40's through the 60's. ;)
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Great news! With new prime mover files, this will put RailPro on an even playing field with several high quality DCC decoders. Can hardly wait for the new files to become available.
Mel
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Alas the GTEL Turbine is completely different from the UA Turbo. They had a small diesel engine for moving the power around in the terminal, and only cut in the big turbine when heading out on the road.
The UA Turbos had the turbines running all the time.
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Also got word from Tim that all new recordings were made with the locomotive under load. That should mean that we'll have some exceptional sound. Many of the other control companies record the locomotive stationary and run it through all eight notches. However locomotives sound different when under load or pulling a train. At the end of this, Railpro may have some of the best sounds available on the market.
Now the question is how will those source recordings be used. A lot of the final product comes down to editing and how the software uses the sound. Hopefully Tim is able to utilize these recordings to their full potential.
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The UA Turbos had the turbines running all the time.
I wonder if you recorded the original sounds from the Rapido Turbo Train how difficult it would be to operate it using custom sounds loaded into the LM?
I've never heard the Turbo, so I'm just spitting ideas here.
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Bill,
I've thought of that as well, but I have no idea how to go ahead with the recording. Thoughts?
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I've thought of that as well, but I have no idea how to go ahead with the recording. Thoughts?
I'll email you.
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At the end of this, Railpro may have some of the best sounds available on the market.
Now the question is how will those source recordings be used. A lot of the final product comes down to editing and how the software uses the sound. Hopefully Tim is able to utilize these recordings to their full potential.
On a given day in the world of audio, RailPro would be probably be classed at the bottom end but when RPA creates a sound it is doing something that I don't fully understand yet that seems to create good sound from low quality. I know how many bits per sample and how many samples per second there are utilised for the sound files yet the format evades me. Lot's more study needed.
I wonder if you recorded the original sounds from the Rapido Turbo Train how difficult it would be to operate it using custom sounds loaded into the LM?
You could do that, and you don't need (or want) a microphone either however the resultant recordings may not be what you expect, and you have a lot of editing ahead. Since Bill has put his hand up I'll let Bill handle it.
I did go to Rapido's website to see if I could find out what decoder they used; I had to laugh very loudly when I came across their decoder page, where they mentioned the "special" 8 ohm speaker they included. Nothing special about it; 90% of the world would know it's nothing but an iPhone 4S speaker ::)
- Tim
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Since Bill has put his hand up...
That's because Bill lives 1 hour from Ian. ;)
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In conversations with Tim I've learned that Ring Engineering has many new high-quality recordings in their possession, and that work is beginning to create new prime mover files. This will be welcome news to all of us diesel users, as the current Railpro prime mover files leave a lot to be desired.
-Kevin
That's great. But what about us steam guys????
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Steam has updated light and heavy engine files, along with associated misc engine sounds. I know Ring has a recording of a Shay, and may have a few others as well. I don't know as I haven't asked him. My focus is solely on diesels, specifically modern, so that's what my conversation with him was about.
Bottom line is that sounds will be improving across the board for Railpro users. Any news of new recordings is good news for Railpro users, even if it doesn't necessarily work for your modeling time period. That will all come with time.
-Kevin
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Kevin
That is good news as I have various logging steam engines and it seems like Ring is trying to accommodate us steamers with these new sounds. My diesels are of the very early type like S-2 switchers so most any diesels sounds will suffice for me.
Cheers, Darryl
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Quick update on new sounds:
I recently followed with Tim regarding the progress on the GEVO beta, and he replied that they are "considering making some big changes to the new sound files", which would delay it and the others a bit longer.
What these big changes are, I'm not sure. I'm assuming (and hoping) that is has to do with coding new sound handling, so that the prime movers can rev up and down smoothly through several notches at once. That would also allow behavior similar to Loksound's Full Throttle feature. I'm hoping, but we'll see.
-Kevin
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I'll take any delay if it means better sound and sound handling. Ring is being left behind in the sound department which isn't good for RailPro. It seems that sound quality and what's available is still one of the major limiting factors for RailPro uptake.
- Tim
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Talked to Tim a bit more and got a little more info. Revving through multiple notches isn't high on the list of changes, because prototypically engineers are taught to only go through one notch at a time. Some do run thru multiple notches at once, so it may still make it into the updates. He didn't say what exactly the changes were going to be.
Talking to some engineers I got the same information. What I don't know is if this restriction is due to modern regulations or not. Was running up through multiple notches more common in older times?
-Kevin
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Talked to Tim a bit more and got a little more info. Revving through multiple notches isn't high on the list of changes, because prototypically engineers are taught to only go through one notch at a time. Some do run thru multiple notches at once, so it may still make it into the updates. He didn't say what exactly the changes were going to be.
This is very concerning to me. Both in replicating Coasting, and in keeping the sound smooth during user 'error'.
Even if "you're not supposed to run through multiple notches" there is no question that it sounds like running smoothly up from Notch 2 to Notch 8 - and you should be able to replicate that with the controller without so much effort.
If you Can't Do this...
...then your sound is crap compared to todays benchmark.
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I find it a little more than just concerning. Smooth transition from any notch to any other notch, no matter how far apart they are is integral to realism. If I can't have realism then what am I buying sound modules for? The video Bill posted shows how it's done in the real world quite well. I know I have a video somewhere that shows notching (as part of a cab ride) as well. I'll have to try and find it.
- Tim
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The more that Tim hears about our concerns, the more likely he is to address them. I don't think he realizes how much smooth notch transitions would benefit both us and Railpro.
-Kevin
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A cool feature that Railpro could incorporate would be to operate the train solely by throttle notches. Basically utilize the motor load data with 8 load levels making speed independent of the throttle settings. Would make operating a whole lot more realistic.
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in my email from Tim Ring today...
Hi Bill,
We definitely plan to fix the skipped notch problem. We are looking into straight to 8. Our newer sound files like our new gevo is very significantly better than our current sounds. Further we are working on a new sound feature that no other supplier has. So we are working toward being a leader in sounds.
Tim
Ring Engineering Inc.
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In addition to what Bill posted, I also received a reply today for the question "what are you planning to do":
We are no disclosing any info at this time because
1) We are not sure at this point
and
2) We may patent the idea.
I have no idea what they have in mind, but it sounds intriguing. I will be patiently waiting.
-Kevin
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Hi Kevin, How you doing? It's been a long time since I have talked with you.
Have you heard anything more on new sounds from Tim? While them EMD and GE sounds are going to be great, I really need some Alco 244 and 251-12 and 251-16 sounds. The Alco sounds are really lagging behind with RailPro.
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I've been asking Tim for the Alco 244 for years, so he's aware of it.
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Kenny - One of our members submitted recordings for the Alco 12-251 and 16-251 (with air starter). These recordings are from the same place the new GEVO sound file came from, so they should be excellent. These are recorded from actual locomotives though I am not sure if the Alco's were under load or not.
Getting new prime movers out takes a while. And I'm sure it's not easy for Tim to try and figure out which prime movers to work on first. He has modern guys like me, steam fans, and transition-era people that are all clamoring for sounds for their era. And the work that goes into a prime mover file is pretty substantial. If you have tried to do a good loop for a horn sound file, you know how frustrating and time consuming that can be. Now do that for all 8 notches and have everything be seamless so there are no auditory artifacts.
I'm glad that Ring is doing the prime mover editing themselves, though I wouldn't be opposed to them farming out some of it to Railpro fans who have a knack for audio editing. I'm sure there are a few of us who have the appropriate skills and who would be more than happy to help with editing if it gets the files out faster. Anyone want to volunteer?
-Kevin
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Anyone want to volunteer?
I'll throw my hat in the ring. I am very comfortable with Adobe Audition.
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Kevin is correct we've done two Alco sounds. We are hoping to get the 244 engine and a 16-251 with electric start this summer. Also on the hit list is a U30C and a C30-7 (FDL-16) pre 1980 and post 1980 with the EPA muffler but before GE changed the engine rpm speeds on the Dash 8 model and above to only 3. Probably for emissions compliance. As for the PA engine I believe this was a 16-244 and I'm not sure if any are in use in the USA. I'm not sure if there is any in service in Australia or not, as they we big Alco users. The C-415, 8-251 engine is something we would like to get as Bowser has announced this as an upcoming model.
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Thank you Kevin!
Bruce I had forgot all about you telling me about them. To many paint fumes :P
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As for the PA engine I believe this was a 16-244 <snip> I'm not sure if there is any in service in Australia or not, as they we big Alco users
Unfortunately no 16-244's down here, never got used in this country. There are a few 12-244's on the rails still along with some 12-251's (B and C), and a number of 6-251B's.
We've also got the 8-251 in a C-415, though if it's still functional would be anybody's guess.
- Tim
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FYI I have now provided Ring with an EMD 16-645E3 recording. Sounds pretty good too. Can't wait to hear it on my SD40-2s.
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Can't wait to hear it on my SD40-2s.
Me too! I'm Excited!!
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Bruce!!!! I tip my hat to you! I've been waiting for a good 645E3 since I bought Railpro. And I've got a newly built SD40-2 ready to receive the new file, with another on the way.
Tim should drop everything else and get this out ASAP....at least that's what I wish he would do.
Kevin
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Tim should drop everything else and get this out ASAP
Agreed! Lets' start a petition!!!
;)
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Agreed! Lets' start a petition!!!
;)
I'll be the first to sign up. Perhaps if we all email him multiple times a day he will jump on it. Or he'll mark all of us as spam.
Kevin
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Agreed! Lets' start a petition!!!
Can I sign a petition to not sign a petition? Ok I know many of you are desperate for a good 645E and I respect that and I could certainly use it too but personally I'd prefer to see the list of outstanding bugs fixed first than see RE drop everything to work solely on an engine sound. It really is not that hard to fix bugs and I can't see any reason why they haven't been fixed yet.
- Tim
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Just to be clear, I don't think there will be any petition. ;)
I'm glad to hear that there is a decent E3 recording on the horizon though.
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In conversations with Tim I've learned that Ring Engineering has many new high-quality recordings in their possession, and that work is beginning to create new prime mover files. This will be welcome news to all of us diesel users, as the current Railpro prime mover files leave a lot to be desired.
Confirmed upcoming releases (no idea on release window...could be a while):
-GE Evolution 12-GEVO (for ES44 series) (already in beta, but got put on the back-burner to focus on hardware...HC-2 revisions and CI-1)
-GE Evolution 12-GEVO-T4 (for ET44 series)
-GE 7FDL-16 (Dash 9, AC4400
-EMD 710-G3B (SD70MAC, SD70, SD75)
-EMD 710-G3C-T2 (SD70Ace)
Unconfirmed but hinted at:
-EMD 16-645 Roots
-EMD 16-645E3
-EMD 16-567
These take a while to do, so I wouldn't expect them to be released quickly. However, it is nice to know that we have some good, high-quality sounds coming our way. From what I've heard of the GEVO beta the rest of these recordings should be awesome.
-Kevin
It's been almost a year since Kevin first put this up. Anybody heard about any more (or updated) sounds? I've got several SD70s, CSX seems to like them here in Florida, and the current EMD 710 sound file kind of tones down at about 50% throttle. At 100% the compressor and pop-off is louder than the turbine. I set it up to manually notch to see if it's just my hearing getting older, but that ain't it.
Just wondering,
PatP
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Some of these sounds are part of the current crop of beta tests.
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You'll like the new 710-G3B! In fact, you'll like all of the new sounds that are coming out. It's what we've been waiting for!
-Kevin
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Sweet! Glad to hear it.
PatP
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Hopefully there will be a few Alco sounds in the upcoming release.
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Hopefully there will be a few Alco sounds in the upcoming release.
There is, haven't tried it yet myself as I don't have any Alco's.
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Kevin,
I've been meaning to ask, though we know that the new sounds coming are awesome, what's the response (quality) like from sugar cube speakers. I'm likely to get some more sugar cubes soon.
- Tim
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Kevin,
I've been meaning to ask, though we know that the new sounds coming are awesome, what's the response (quality) like from sugar cube speakers. I'm likely to get some more sugar cubes soon.
- Tim
As good as ever, from what I can tell. The new sounds are really on a completely different level from what we've seen from Ring before. And on a higher level than DCC offerings as far as sound quality goes. They are really nice.
The sugar cubes, especially in pairs or quads, sound about as good as you can get. The ability of put dual sugar cube speakers in a locomotive (one in front and one in back) localizes the sound right where it needs to be and makes it much fuller than a single speaker. All my old locomotives that have a single traditional speaker will eventually be updated to sugar cubes.
-Kevin
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It's been almost a year since Kevin first put this up. Anybody heard about any more (or updated) sounds? I've got several SD70s, CSX seems to like them here in Florida, and the current EMD 710 sound file kind of tones down at about 50% throttle. At 100% the compressor and pop-off is louder than the turbine. I set it up to manually notch to see if it's just my hearing getting older, but that ain't it.
Just wondering,
PatP
Pat a few weeks ago I provided Ring with the engine you need for the SD70/75 EMD 16-710G3C. I hope he does release it separately and not think this 710 is like a 16-710G3C-T2/T3 (SD70M-2 etc)
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Bruce, there is a new 710 file (not the 710G3C-T2) that I assume is the recording you provided of the 710G3C. I haven't downloaded it yet to test it. If it's anything like the 710G3C-T2 then it will be awesome.
-Kevin
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Kevin, I haven't tried it yet either. That 710 is for the SD/GP60. I thought the raw files of it sounded pretty darn good. I think it would be better if Tim actually put the exact engine model next to the file, i.e., 16-645E3. I'm hoping to hear back from the LS&I soon on going up and recording their U30Cs. This will fill a big hole in the pre 1980s 7FDL engine without the exhaust silencer.
Bruce
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I think it would be better if Tim actually put the exact engine model next to the file, i.e., 16-645E3.
This is something we should probably bring up with Tim Ring. It would be very helpful. Perhaps previously (current available sounds) he was not aware of the exact engine models of the sounds he had but if he's been made aware of the engine model number when the awesome new sounds were submitted there isn't a reason for him not to, except perhaps that no one has told him that he should because it'd be really helpful.
- Tim
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there isn't a reason for him not to,
Yes and no. It potentially invites rivet counting myopia. While in and of itself that is not a bad thing, it could spur a wave of requests that would further complicate Tim's life.
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I think it would be better if Tim actually put the exact engine model next to the file, i.e., 16-645E3.
I was thinking the same thing and had already crafted an email suggesting this.
It wouldn't hurt for Tim to hear this suggestion from a few people.
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It potentially invites rivet counting myopia.
True, But Ring has expressed a desire to become a player in the high end sound game and naming his files accurately now will signal that intention and keep his catalog better organized from the get-go.
If Ring wants people to choose RailPro, not only because it's easier to use, but also because it's sound offerings are top of the line, then those sound files need to underscore that Ring is serious about accurate sound in every way possible.
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Yes and no. It potentially invites rivet counting myopia. While in and of itself that is not a bad thing, it could spur a wave of requests that would further complicate Tim's life.
I can see where Alan's coming from, with engine sounds having to be created by RE themselves. I can see perhaps some requests for correct sounds for various locomotives but I can't see rivet counting myopia being a result. There is an answer to the potential problem of Tim Rings life being "complicated" by requests but I don't think we'll ever see it happen.
With listing the engine model number, it could even go this way which might help if an exact model number is not known. Simply list the full or basic engine model (if full is not known) and the locomotive type the recording came from, such as GE 7FDL-16 C44-9W or EMD 16-645 Turbo SD40 or EMD 16-645 GP38-2 or EMD 6-645E G6B (yes, I need that last one). I think you get the idea.
- Tim
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Tim,
Do you mean an EMD 8-645E G6B? I guess this was in the SW1000?
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Hi Bruce,
No it's definitely a 6-645E that I need, along with a 6-567C. G6B is the locomotive model number.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OmgVvDY2t8Y/Vbcn6_CtRCI/AAAAAAAAAKc/TXc9kOthgv4/s1600/GM%2B6%2Bcylinder%2Bengine.jpg)
There's not one to be found in the US, the 6-645 was only ever used down here. http://victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/ydie/ydie.html (http://victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/ydie/ydie.html)
- Tim
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True, But Ring has expressed a desire to become a player in the high end sound game...
I do wonder how burning that desire is now. Does he want to be a game changer? A leader? Just in the same ballpark? I sent an email to RE last week on the naming of files and finally got a reply. RE are more than happy to just use generic names when they only have one recording of a particular type of prime mover. If they get more versions of type of primer mover they get more specific in the naming. People are also welcome to ask what the prime mover is and RE will tell them.
The email was closed off with this. "The reality is that the majority of our customers are not that interested in that level of detail." Well RE, if you want to be at the top end of the sound game they will be!
- Tim
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The email was closed off with this. "The reality is that the majority of our customers are not that interested in that level of detail." Well RE, if you want to be at the top end of the sound game they will be!
- Tim
He would do well to heed this business axiom - The road to mediocrity is paved with percentages and averages.
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I'm really not too concerned with the naming as it stands. The new 645T file is actually a 16-645E3, but with all the other 645 variants out there it makes sense to leave it named more generally until we get the other variants recorded. And those will come. Eventually we will have all the 645 variants, beginning with the most common...16-645E3, 12-645E3, 20-645E3, 16-645F and so forth. This will naturally include the non-turbo variants in all their glory. When they roll in and are available it makes sense to be much more specific. Either way it doesn't really matter....in the end we'll get the sounds that we've all wanted for so long.
I know that a 16-645E (roots) was recorded but the recording may possibly have too much noise in it. There are others that have been and are planned to be recorded.
I'd stress that patience is a good thing here. Basically all of the new (and I might add excellent) recordings have come from just one of our own RPUG members here. He's taken it upon himself to provide better recordings than are available in the marketplace now, and it takes RE time to convert those into useable files. You won't be disappointed in the new sounds, I'll tell you that. RE has done something interesting in the coding and processing that makes the end result sound much nicer than any DCC offering I've heard.
-Kevin
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I got to hear some of the beta sounds last weekend and let me stress that we will not be disappointed. And I'm just as anxious as everyone else. My buddies Tsunami F7 blows my RP E7/8's out of the water on sound right now.
I have accesss to GP10's, a GP20, and a GP38 but I don't have sound equipment. I'd kill for a new 567 right now.
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I have access to GP10's, a GP20, and a GP38 but I don't have sound equipment. I'd kill for a new 567 right now.
I think I remember seeing a list of recordings that Bruce has done, but I don't remember where it was.
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I have accesss to GP10's, a GP20, and a GP38 but I don't have sound equipment. I'd kill for a new 567 right now.
PM inbound.
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Jacob,
Tim Ring has a recording of a 12 cyl 567, but not a 16 cyl.
I am in the process of arranging access to a GP9 to record the 16 cyl 567, but if you already have solid access to this, perhaps we would be better targeting your access.
Please contact me offline to discuss some options.
I think we can arrange to get the proper equipment setup to you in after the first week of October.