RailPro User Group
RailPro => RailPro Specific Help & Discussion => Topic started by: G8B4Life on June 17, 2017, 08:23:40 AM
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This post is really just some pointless idle chatter; I have a cold but don't want to go to bed yet. :-[ however.....
I was just over on the MRH forums for the first time in a month and read through the posts on the ProtoThrottle beta video thread. Link for those so inclined to look if they have not read it. http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/30265 (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/30265).
While the thread goes on forever about Drive Hold (which I'm not debating here in this post) what I did take away from the thread is this.
The guys developing ProtoThrottle are:
- Actively on a major forum updating the development.
- Actively on a major forum explaining choices in the development.
- Actively on a major forum listening to ideas.
While we have:
- A product whose only contact with users or potential users is either phone or email
- A lot of times a generic "we're not going to tell you" response when asking about or for information.
- A list of requested features going back years that have not been fulfilled.
- A list of bugs going back years that have not been fixed.
The last new product, the CI-1, was released last September (nearly a year ago) and before that the LM-3 and last proper HC software update in July last year (for all practical reasons 1 year ago) so given that others can very proactive about their products and their user base and given the time past since Ring did something major why is it so hard for us?
- Tim
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It is worthy to note that it is Scott Thornton, not a DCC system manufacturer, collaborating on MRH to build the throttle stand.
You do bring up a good point. The rule of thumb is 10% of readers post on forums meaning the audience is 10x what it appears to be on any given forum. Considering the number of eyeballs one would think any manufacturer would benefit from engagement on the forums. Minus posting time it is free product awareness and free market research. Look how much goodwill Joe Fugate gets for MRH by being active on his own forum. With Bill being generous in setting up this forum dedicated to RP, without cost to Ring, it almost seems like a slap in the face that Tim doesn't at least pop in once in a while with a comment.
I bought RailPro because I didn't want to control my trains with the technology equivalent of a 1970's calculator. I am a satisfied RP customer. That said, I am less than impressed with Ring Engineering as a company. Not unhappy but not impressed. Kudos to Tim for being extremely responsive to email communication however the responses are always light on content. His responses leave me feeling like Tim isn't the one actually doing the work, as if he has only a superficial understanding of the product. His message phrasing doesn't give one the sense you are speaking to someone with a deep thorough understanding of the product's innards. Maybe I am expecting too much or maybe he doesn't want to reveal anything technical. The RP documentation clearly demonstrates the latter. It is so weak.
The inaction on reported software bugs supports my suspicions. I do a little PHP MySQL web app work myself for select clients of the company I work for. When someone reports a bug I fix it. Because I wrote every line of every script I have a complete understanding of where to look and what is likely the issue. Even if the problem is so tangled it will take considerable work to rectify it I at least temporarily fix it with an ugly collection of if else statements. :-[ I can't understand why Tim doesn't do the same unless, as I suspect, he isn't actually writing the code himself and instead is reliant on someone else to get around to it. Perhaps at a cost. Or it could be the revenue is coming in so why bother! Another piece of evidence... consider Ring's first product was a blinking end-of-train device. The second product was a complete DCC replacement control system. That's one hell of a leap in product development. Not the course one expect an evolving product engineer to take. Unless, the leap was purchased instead of developed.
I'll stop rambling as I am starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. :-X
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I think those sentiments mirror many peoples feelings Alan however we can confuse it some more.
A look at the internet archive gives us this about us page http://web.archive.org/web/20070629083816/http://www.ringengineering.com:80/AboutUs.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20070629083816/http://www.ringengineering.com:80/AboutUs.htm) so TR does have the background for it and it seems the EOT came about because he wanted one (how many products come to market) so it's not far fetched that RailPro came about because the DCC system he got wasn't up to snuff for him.
All the FCC approvals for RailPro are dated 2009 so we can imagine considerable development time before then so it's possible that RailPro was being developed concurrently with the EOT's, at least in the EOT's latter stages of development anyway. BTW, you should see the photo's of the first HC, it's not like we know it now, and yes, the batteries were under the screen then too.
As to responses and documentation being weak, It can only think it must be paranoia that any technical details, no matter how small and regardless if it's something that people should know will leave RailPro exposed to the competition.
Getting back to the topic at hand, you are right on forum readers and posters etc and I don't understand why a manufacturer wouldn't use the best in the world marketing tool available to them (social interaction), considering I can't see the customers or money "rolling in" on the back of RailPro but I guess manufacturers have their reasons.
I find it more a slap in the face that TR doesn't even recognise us. I'd bet he's not ever pointed one person here. It seriously makes me wonder how we can promote this group better ourselves.
- Tim
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It is safe to remove my tin foil hat. As with all conspiracy theories, facts prove them wrong. Thanks Tim for supplying the facts and the follow-up PM info.
I think it is safe to conclude Ring Engineering is simply a bit weak when it comes to marketing and a bit slow with product development. I can live with both. My trains are running just fine.
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I think it is safe to conclude Ring Engineering is simply a bit weak when it comes to marketing and a bit slow with product development. I can live with both. My trains are running just fine.
I concur on all counts. Having spoken with Tim on several occasions, along with many emails, I believe he is a brilliant man. I also think that RP is basically a one man operation most of the time. Whenever I have called, Tim always answers the phone, and not someone else.
The fact that RP is so unknown in the industry supports the weak marketing statement. Because they have such a small segment of the market, there may not be much money to invest in marketing while trying to invent and manufacture new products or features. He has kept new features under the hat, most likely because they have not been patented as yet. He is very responsive to us loyal customers and will go out of his way to make something right, if possible. As of now, there are several new things in the pipeline that we can look forward to, but it all takes time and money. ;)
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I think it is safe to conclude Ring Engineering is simply a bit weak when it comes to marketing and a bit slow with product development.
This is why I've done the few videos I have, and have been promoting Railpro on various forums. When I was looking into Railpro there was literally no information available, so I decided to take a risk and get it myself to see first-hand what it was. I didn't want others to be in the same boat as myself, so I made videos to explain it.
At the same time I went on various forums to correct the misinformation and answer questions. It'd be great if Tim did some of that, but if he spent all his time on forums he wouldn't be spending any time on development.
That being said, I'd love to see a much faster software release schedule. Ring has had a stack of new recordings for a while that have yet to see the light of day. Is release of these waiting for a new sound handling architecture, or is it just taking longer than expected to get them edited? A little transparency goes a long ways. It'd be great to have Ring at least give us a heads up as to what's going on.
I do think Ring is paranoid about releasing technical details. The responses we have all gotten from him to various questions seem to confirm that...very vague answers. That doesn't bother me that much. I just wish we had little more transparency of what is going on....I'm sure we'd all love to hear about possible upcoming features, rather than one or two people knowing about them and being told to not share the information.
-Kevin
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I didn't want others to be in the same boat as myself, so I made videos to explain it.
Your effort was well received here. It was your videos and later Ring's own videos that sealed the deal for me. Thanks KPack.
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As for myself, I am very happy to have discovered RP as I was not happy using what few brain cells I have left and spending far too much time trying to play with the trains using DCC. Really can't remember how I found out about RP but it definitely was not an ad. I probably stumbled across some post on one of the various websites that I haunt? I never had any complaints for it is what it is. Could it be better? Sure, most likely but in time..
Hot in Yuma 8) but cool inside. Darryl the old fardt :)
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I didn't want others to be in the same boat as myself, so I made videos to explain it.
Your effort was well received here. It was your videos and later Ring's own videos that sealed the deal for me. Thanks KPack.
Same here. I was considering the radio DCC thing, the now defunct Layout IOE, and then came across Kevin's videos. I definitely owe you a beer in Evanston Kevin.
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Thanks Jacob, but I don't drink :).
Perhaps we can take some footage while running on Lee's layout for new videos? My struggle with making new videos right now is two-fold....first I don't have my own layout at the moment so I'm relying on others, and second I need to get higher-quality video equipment. I'd like the videos to be much more professional.
I don't know about you guys, but for myself I will usually hit Youtube for reviews before I purchase something. Written reviews are good and all, but I'm a visual person and prefer to see it with my eyes before I make a final judgement. I imagine many model railroaders are that way as well.
A lot has changed since that first "Railpro Review" video I made. It's definitely time for an updated one. I kind of want to wait until Ring releases the new prime mover sounds before I do it though.
-Kevin
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Add me to the "Owe Kevin" list. Over five years ago I was looking to get back into the hobby. DCC seemed (and still is) too complicated. I believe I saw an ad for RP on MRH. Then Googled RP and found Kevin's video. That pretty much clinched it for me. Regrets? None! Thanks Kevin! :)
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I too owe Kpack a lot of thanks. I also don't remember how I stumbled on RP. Lot's of research I guess. programing in DCC was too much for me.
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I waited a long time and ran old DC junk before I decided to convert to DCC. I didn't want to but it was the to only way to advance. Then I saw the Railpro ad in Model Railroad Hobbyist on line magazine, watched the video from the magazine and thought that was the way to go. Watching the limited number of youtube videos that you guys made convinced me. I thank you for the time and effort. I am in the Niagara area, asking any dealer or hobby store if they have the product and you get a blank stare ! and a question what the heck is Railpro? They get irritated because they want to sell you a DCC system and of course DCC decoders. I looked on EBAY but found the best way for me was to order from Bill. I was also surprised and just a little bit concerned to learn that Railpro has been in existence for quite a while and still there appears (via this forum) to be a limited Railpro community. I have only had Railpro for two months. I sincerely hope that Railpro can sustain itself and not fizzle out of the marketplace.
Larry
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So I think what we've established is that Ring Engineering's marketing isn't exactly the cat's meow. A few basic ads in MRH (and possibly others) really doesn't cut it.
I've learned through running a dental practice (and this applies to most businesses) is that the most effective type of marketing is internal marketing....happy customers spread the word and refer friends and colleagues. The best part is that it doesn't cost a thing to the business and it's highly effective. For example, in my practice we spend hardly anything on advertising apart from the standard yellow pages ad and a few charitable things. Yet we still see an unbelievable amount of new patients. Why? It's all from internal marketing....people are happy with their experience and want others to have the same.
So, applying that to Railpro I think the lesson is fairly obvious. We've all seen that most modelers or model train shops have never heard of Railpro. I'd rather the we be the ones to tell them, and not have Ring Engineering drop a bunch of money on more advertising when that money could perhaps be better spent on product development. Each and every one of us here has great things to say about Railpro. None of us would ever go back to DCC. Therefore we are Railpro's internal marketing.
What can we do to help spread the word? Forums? Videos? Pictures of installs?
-Kevin
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I have to thank Alan and his blog for leading me to RailPro and Kpack for his videos after that. I know I replied to some of Darryl.trains questions in 9/16 on Railroad Line Forums when he was looking for a new system.
The forum that seems most positively responsive IMO is MRH but of course there are naysayers. I think if Ring would do demos (like Matt does for Loksound) that would help. Maybe get on Ken Patterson's "Whats Neat" program on MRH. Videos are great (I have no clue how to put one together or how difficult to do) but they can be posted anywhere).
I run 3 systems. CVP miniair on battery (5 engines, 2 throttles), Blue Rail on battery (2 engines) and 4 engines on RailPro. I am most interested in sound but RailPro is by far the easiest system to pick up and run. My B-I-L loves running with RailPro and dislikes anything else.
TomO
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I didn't expect this thread would take off like it has while I was sleeping. Perhaps I should do that more often :) OK yes that's cheesy but I have to make fun at the time difference somehow.
I think we can all agree that most of us owe Kevin for his RailPro videos but more importantly I think Tim Ring really owes Kevin for them; They did a much better job at gaining him some sales that his own promotional material and that's not something to be sneezed at.
Both Larry and Kevin bring up good points about RailPro awareness though I'd wouldn't be worried much by a blank stare at the hobby shop; I'd simply take my RP dollars elsewhere, it's their loss not mine if they don't want to know about it.
I think Kevin is on the right track, if we want to see RP really come alive then the marketing has to be done by us, the users. It won't happen from Rings end. I really don't know what else we can do though other than what we do already on other forums etc but an article and/or video / video article, perhaps in MRH for the widest readerbase on the upcoming RailPro Op's session on Lee's layout could be a very good thing if it can be done.
I don't know if Lee's layout has featured in MRH before or not but even if it has an article on what amount's to the wholesale conversion of a well known and established large layout to RailPro, and why RailPro and not mainstream DCC might be worth considering as well.
- Tim
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Another piece of evidence... consider Ring's first product was a blinking end-of-train device. The second product was a complete DCC replacement control system. That's one hell of a leap in product development. Not the course one expect an evolving product engineer to take. Unless, the leap was purchased instead of developed.
In one of my conversations with Tim last year he told me that creating the RailPro system was always his number one intent, and that producing the EOT devices was the way to raise the capital. From our point of view it may seem to be quite a leap, but in fact it was not. The leap was backward, creating something simple but profitable so he could fund the development of the control system he originally envisioned (in the context of our conversation, I never got the impression that it was purchased).
So I would like to add a big thank you to all of those freight train modelers out there that helped fund the system we all enjoy today!
Michael
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This thread questions: What are we truely waiting for?
New sounds? Are the bugs really altering our experience of the product?
Personnally, Railpro does everything I ever wanted from a control system and even does more. The nice-to-have extra features Ring is working on will come eventually, but I cannot really complain about the product I own. It runs my trains the way I want and I am happy.
We actually -knew- when buying RP that updates would come slowly. I am pretty sure most of us also doubted a bit before buying: "What happens if the company goes belly up?" So we knew, and we bought it anyway, cause RP is great and works almost flawlessly in its current state.
Not my intent to kill the thread, just throwing in my two cents.
Antoine
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Right with ya Antoine. On the previous page I posted
I think it is safe to conclude Ring Engineering is simply a bit weak when it comes to marketing and a bit slow with product development. I can live with both. My trains are running just fine.
Your statement pretty much sums up the RailPro experience for everybody
It runs my trains the way I want and I am happy.
Maybe that should be the RailPro marketing slogan.
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I have to chime in here.
I for one have no issues with RP or Tim. I speak with him on a regular basis almost weekly and I can assure you he has some new releases coming out very soon and some of the changes I have beta tested and they are great. Tim is very protective of RP and as you have seen he patents most everything which takes time so have patience. My previous system Rail Lynx which I ran for 25 years had little or no improvements in that time but worked great because it was direct communication with locomotive just like RP. I switched to RP and feel I have hit the mother load and couldn't be happier.
Today I have a couple coming to do another video on the UCW. They were here last fall for the first installment which has been up and running on YouTube for several months and we have over 20,000 hits. Since they were here I have switched to RP and have will give it a major promotion today as we film the layout under operation. His videos are listed under Toy Man go check them out.
I'm a little disappointed in the community response to my invitation for a Sept meet. I've had 3 responses so far and was hoping for more takers as I would like to meet the RP user community hopefully we'll see a few more in the next month or so.
I am excited to be part of the RP family.
Lee Nicholas
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I'm a little disappointed in the community response to my invitation for a Sept meet. I've had 3 responses so far and was hoping for more takers as I would like to meet the RP user community hopefully we'll see a few more in the next month or so.
I'd really like to come, and I'm working on making that happen, but it's hard to get people to commit to a long trip like that. It's quite costly and I'm sure many people can't afford it. The key will be to find more users closer to your location.
Perhaps you can get Tim Ring to promote the event too? You've had lots of contact with Tim. You might get him to do it!
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It runs my trains the way I want and I am happy.
As the one who started this thread in a head cold induced daze I have to emphasise I am in no way dissatisfied with what I own and what I bought into but I'm still a little on the disappointed side so I'll try and explain where I'm coming from.
When I bought into RailPro I had no idea on how slow things would move. I have to disagree with Antoine here, there really isn't a way one could have realistically known how slow RP development would be until it was experienced. I am ok with that though as long as things do actually happen but it seems at times that it isn't as there is little or no engagement from RE to the user base and when something does finally happen I'm sometimes just left shaking my head. For instance the list of bugs (not features we want) goes back years but we all needed a set of barking dogs a couple of months ago. Seriously?
I was perhaps also venting as I also feel a bit alone on the engagement side. I love RailPro and want to help it along (I can see myself as that boot kicking the turtle) but I'm limited in what I can do, sometimes feel as what I have to say is not important when I get short generic answers and most importantly feel like I'm pushing my luck every time I email RE; if TR ever figures out where I am I'm probably screwed. I'm not sure how easy it would be for most here to understand how good it is for you to be able to pick up the phone and have a conversation with TR without fearing being told "you shouldn't be using my product so your on your own". Would that happen? I don't know. Is it a risk I'm willing to take? No.
I'm a little disappointed in the community response to my invitation for a Sept meet. I've had 3 responses so far and was hoping for more takers as I would like to meet the RP user community hopefully we'll see a few more in the next month or so.
Lee,
I wish I could come, I think seeing RP in action in such a large multi user environment would be very interesting but the 17,000 mile round trip is just not going to happen.
- Tim
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"but we all needed a set of barking dogs a couple of months ago. Seriously?"
In fairness, it's likely that these sounds were user submitted, and took little or none of Tim Rings time to release.
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Great insight and very helpful discussion.
LeRoy
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As a newbie I stumbled across Railpro while researching Blue Rail. Blue Rail just didn't offer any reasonable sound even though Blue tooth can now handle jillions of concurrent feeds.
Watching videos and checking prices on the internet led me to Bill Brillinger and his operation. Rail Pro Inc.seems more like a hobby than a real company. Maybe us on the users group could play some part of the Marketing support. If it's truly a one man (or close to it ) operation, the cash resources are obviously somewhat limited, so volunteer help on our part (with RailPro approval) might be beneficial.
Train shows are expensive to display at, but they are always looking for good speakers.
A nice presentation on merits of DCC - DC- Blue Rail and Rail Pro under the blanket of "The State of Model Train Control" or something might be the answer.
Companies need money to survive, and they need customers to get money. I don't want to see this go away.
GaryIII
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I proclaim the merits of RP to everyone whom I think may be interested. On more than one occasion, I have offered to man a RP booth at one of the biggest shows in the country. Tim has declined, stating he would rather grow the business over the Internet.
Keep in mind that as a business grows the personal touch disappears. For now, we still have that personal level of service. More so than any other company I have dealt with.
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It is true that video reviews a huge these days.
Thanks, Kpack. I too used your videos before buying, and it made my purchase a lot less stressful in the end.
Keep up the great work.
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Another reason Tim needs to get on Ken Pattersons show. Exposure...