Post by: KB02 on February 16, 2020, 08:41:48 PM
This is my first post (aside from the Introduce yourself post). I have been considering making the switch from my DCC system and converting everything to Railpro. My biggest hang up (aside from the cost), is understanding the technology. I have been trying to read up as much as I can about it - including the entire FAQ section of Railpro's website - but I have found a few questions still needing to be answered and was hoping the group knowledge here could help me out.
My layout started as a simple DC layout on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Soon the curves left the boundaries of the 4x8 and, as I wanted to run more than one loco at a time, I added in Block wiring. As the railroad expended even further and took over the adjacent room, I came to realize the limitations of my simple DC set up and converted everything to DCC (while still keeping a small section switchable to DC for unconverted locos and new engines that didn't have a DCC Decoder in it yet, etc.). The vast majority of the locos in my fleet are old DC locos that have been converted to DCC with only a couple that were built in recent years with DCC specifically in mind (they run great compared to the others, too). SO, I am no novice at wiring and have obtained a pretty good working knowledge on the DC-DCC differences. But with Railpro, I'm a little confused...
- Railpro runs on DC, correct? Not AC like a DCC system?
- If this is true, can a Railpro loco run on any DC layout as long as the power is set to a certain level?
- At what voltage does it run?
- If I wanted to spend the minimum for a "Test Set-up" on a simple oval, could I just get the basic LM3 module and the computer interface and use an existing DC power pack to power the track? Or is there something special about the Railpro power supply?
Next: Right now, my layout is powered by a 5 amp DCC booster. This has been working well, but with the next expansion that I am planning I will be breaking it up into two power districts as the sheer size of the layout extends a good distance away from the current power supply.
- Would this be the same case for a Railpro layout? I've seen the repeaters, but those are for radio control signal, not power, right?
My layout mostly just goes around the walls in a 13'x32' room, plus a 4'x8'(ish) section on the other side of a wall.
- Would one power supply suffice, or would I need two?
Okay, that's enough questions for now. I'm sure I'll come up with more, but I'll let the group digest those to start with.
Thanks for your insight and assistance.
-Bob
KB02
Post by: William Brillinger on February 16, 2020, 10:48:44 PM
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- Railpro runs on DC, correct? Not AC like a DCC system?No, RailPro will run on DC Power or DCC power. You can place a RailPro equipped locomotive on any DCC layout and run it with your RailPro HC or CI-1 without worry. RailPro only draws power from the rails, it does not care if it's DC or DCC power.
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- If this is true, can a Railpro loco run on any DC layout as long as the power is set to a certain level?- At what voltage does it run?The sweet spot is between 13 and 15V on the rails. Max and Min are 12 & 18V
More info on the LM's:
https://www.ringengineering.com/LM-3S.htm
https://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro/Documents/LM-3Instructions.pdf
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- If I wanted to spend the minimum for a "Test Set-up" on a simple oval, could I just get the basic LM3 module and the computer interface and use an existing DC power pack to power the track? Or is there something special about the Railpro power supply?All you need is the CI-1, a windows PC, and an LM-3 or LM-3S and you're ready to test on your existing DCC layout.
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Next: Right now, my layout is powered by a 5 amp DCC booster. This has been working well, but with the next expansion that I am planning I will be breaking it up into two power districts as the sheer size of the layout extends a good distance away from the current power supply.The repeater is for radio signal and it built into the PWR-56. It is best not to run from a basic DC powerpack as a proper filtered DC output is better for the equipment. The PWR-56 provides smooth filtered power with short protection, and some advanced feedback to the controller performance metrics.
- Would this be the same case for a Railpro layout? I've seen the repeaters, but those are for radio control signal, not power, right?
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My layout mostly just goes around the walls in a 13'x32' room, plus a 4'x8'(ish) section on the other side of a wall.This is a link to my track plan. I only run 2 or 3 trains at a time, but it runs perfectly well with only 1 RailPro PWR-56 power supply. I have approximately 180ft of mainline. https://www.pdc.ca/personal/Blog%20Images/2013-11-20%20BNML%20Trackplan%204000px.jpg
- Would one power supply suffice, or would I need two?
I hope this answers most of your current questions.
Post by: KB02 on February 17, 2020, 06:44:30 AM
Seriously, nice layout. I would say that if you run well off of one power supply, then mine would, too. I will only be around 110 feet of double main line when I am done. And like you, would only be running two or three trains at a time.
Thanks for your answers, they really do help.
-Bob
KB02
Post by: Alan on February 17, 2020, 08:30:51 AM
As you know DCC uses an AC square wave on the rails. Wire resistance is effectively much less with AC current than with DC current. Therefore, DCC is less sensitive to power loss over long wiring runs than is DC. DCC has other long wire run issues with respect to control signal fidelity but those don't matter if you are only using the DCC system to provide power, not control. It may be simplest for you to use your existing DCC system to power RP equipment.
As Bill recommends, don't use your DC throttle pack to run microelectronic stuff. The power signature is way too dirty for microelectronics to tolerate for long.
Post by: DaveB on February 17, 2020, 02:52:50 PM
Bob..Do not try to run RailPro on DC. I had an engine on a club track and they switched from DCC to DC with out me knowing it and I fried a module. Some say it can work, I would't take a chance.
Dave
Post by: nodcc4me on February 17, 2020, 03:05:23 PM
Post by: William Brillinger on February 17, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
He means DCC here.
DCC apparently does cause track to become dirtier quicker.
Alcohol is commonly used to clean track and it also works against you, according to an article in MRH recently.
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh2019-05/publishers-musings
Mineral spirits is a good choice for track & wheel cleaning, regardless of DC or DCC power.
Post by: nodcc4me on February 17, 2020, 03:28:43 PM
Post by: Alan on February 17, 2020, 06:14:09 PM
DCC apparently does cause track to become dirtier quicker.
I am glad you said "apparently" because physics doesn't agree. Nor do switch and relay manufacturers.
When you think about it, a wheel rolling on a rail is nothing more than two contacts of a electrical switch. For various reasons the wheel periodically loses contact with the rail just like an electrical switch opening and closing. If you accept the switch contacts analogy, consider that electrical switch and relay contacts have two load ratings - one for AC and another for DC. The DC rating is typically well below the AC rating. It has to do with zero crossing voltage which AC has and DC does not. AC arcs less than DC because the voltage across the contacts at some point is zero which breaks the arc. For a convincing demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=501&v=mQpzwR7wLeo&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=501&v=mQpzwR7wLeo&feature=emb_logo)
We know powered metal wheels oxidize the rail in a teeny tiny spot every time there is a arc resulting from momentary loss of contact. The residue is zinc and nickel oxides i.e. black gunk. The oxides are of significantly higher resistance than the base metals. The mucked up track and wheels problem is real. No question about that.
The question of which causes more oxidation, DCC or DC is open to debate and warrants study before making definitive statements. DC should be worse. What blurs this assumption is the fact that DCC is an AC square wave, not a conventional AC sine wave. From the switch contacts' point of view DCC is effectively DC for 99% of the time and AC only during the 1% zero crossing time. Still, the presence of zero crossing is what minimizes contact arcing and DCC has it, DC does not.
From a practical standpoint, I don't believe the relative difference is worth your time considering. Basic track maintenance will vastly outweigh any ripples in your power supply or lack thereof.
- metal wheelsets
- run trains often
- graphene
- clean environment
Post by: The_Dave on February 18, 2020, 11:10:31 PM
Thanks and keep the lessons coming!
Post by: KB02 on February 21, 2020, 02:11:41 PM
Another question I have: I scratch built a turn table and round house. The turn table is powered by a simple 12v dc motor I hit off of eBay. Right now I control it with a basic decoder - my FCTC system thinks it is a loco that never gets above speed step 2. Would this be able to be powered by the accessory power supply? Or might I just be better off hooking up an old dc power pack just to control the turn table motor?
Post by: Alan on February 21, 2020, 02:34:01 PM
Post by: Alan on February 21, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
Controller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-30V-DC-Motor-Speed-Controller-Reversible-PWM-Control-Forward-Reverse-Switch-M/181970823477?_trkparms=aid%3D1110002%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200116171858%26meid%3Dfd23eaddd92347c3b328bec31d29d38b%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D184172621674%26itm%3D181970823477%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-30V-DC-Motor-Speed-Controller-Reversible-PWM-Control-Forward-Reverse-Switch-M/181970823477?_trkparms=aid%3D1110002%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200116171858%26meid%3Dfd23eaddd92347c3b328bec31d29d38b%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D184172621674%26itm%3D181970823477%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219)
Your old school power pack is not a great solution if you need to operate the turntable motor at a slow speed. PWM will do a much better job of it.
Post by: nodcc4me on February 21, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
I couldn't justify buying another AM-1 just for that.
Post by: KB02 on February 23, 2020, 06:28:09 AM
While I do my best to keep things running well, derails do happen AND I have about a dozen Atlas snap switches which, in and of themselves, like to cause shorts with normal operation (only a couple real “problem children,” and I’m working on those).
Post by: G8B4Life on February 23, 2020, 08:01:34 AM
That said, tolerant doesn't mean the LM won't be affected by a short that doesn't trip an external-to-the-LM-short-protection-device, The LM will stop and sound will stop playing until the short is removed.
We had a thread not long ago on Atlas snap switches that were causing a problem with RP. The relevant part is from this message that has the video in it: https://rpug.pdc.ca/index.php/topic,964.msg7391.html#msg7391 (https://rpug.pdc.ca/index.php/topic,964.msg7391.html#msg7391)
- Tim
Post by: nodcc4me on February 23, 2020, 08:48:16 AM
Post by: KB02 on February 25, 2020, 07:22:49 PM
On most of my DCC sound decoders, I can press F9 and get the standard two long, one short, one long horn blast along with the bell and wig-wagging ditch lights. Is that an option with Railpro?
I've been looking at the available literature and haven't come across it.
Post by: G8B4Life on February 26, 2020, 05:08:13 AM
Have a horn button.
Have a bell button.
You can also :
Have a flash the ditchlights button and,
Can set the ditchlights to flash automatically when the horn is activated as well.
but they all work independently.
- Tim
Post by: KB02 on March 02, 2020, 08:43:35 PM
Using the PC adapter, I’m finding I have about a 6 foot effective range. Does that seem about right? Power to the loco is straight from my DCC system, so there is no repeater in play.
Post by: William Brillinger on March 02, 2020, 09:09:01 PM
I have about a 40ft range with the HC-2's in my place, but usually I am following my train and not generally more than 10 ft away.
Post by: G8B4Life on March 02, 2020, 11:30:09 PM
Using the PC adapter, I’m finding I have about a 6 foot effective range. Does that seem about right?...
I don't think that would be typical. I don't know if the handheld does have a more powerful radio or not (I haven't opened up a CI-1 to see nor used a signal strength meter on them) but I've used the CI-1 at a distance at least twice that through a wall, but that was just playing around with an LM hooked up to a decoder tester board.
Make sure there are no power supplies directly in between (line of sight) the CI-1 and the LM's. RFI can interfere with the signal.
I'm not sure how wide the beam is from the transmitter on different RP products (whether truly omni-directional or not). If the CI-1 is not orientated generally in the direction of the LM's (eg, pointing in completely the opposite direction) try to orientate the CI-1 to be pointing towards the LM's and see if you get better range.
Which way up do your have the LM's installed? The transmitter is on the side with the logo and product name etc. If you've got this side facing down into the frame of the locomotive you could be loosing a lot of signal strength from the LM's.
- Tim
Post by: William Brillinger on March 03, 2020, 06:52:41 AM
I have mine up on the wall on a USB extension. It helps to have it away from the PC.
Post by: KB02 on March 03, 2020, 07:52:03 AM
Tim Ring has indicated to me in the past that the signal strength of the CI-1 is less.
I have mine up on the wall on a USB extension. It helps to have it away from the PC.
That's interesting... I might have to try that.
Post by: Alan on March 03, 2020, 08:14:49 AM
Post by: KPack on March 03, 2020, 11:02:18 PM
-Kevin