Rail pro and an electronics novice

[IDRick]

I've visited the forum several times and have asked questions in the past.  My first draw was watching a couple of excellent videos by KPack.  He painted a very positive and encouraging picture of train control with Rail Pro and easy installation.  Plug and play was developed for electronic novices like me!  I have seven locomotives: two Athearn blue box, three P2K, a P1K, and an atlas.  I had a friend tune up my Athearn locomotives plus install nine pin JST harnesses.  The others are described as being DCC ready.  TSC has decoders that are drop-in installs for all my locomotives so it would be easy to convert to non-sound dcc.  The P2Ks and P1K need to have resistors added after replacing the light board.  TCS decoders for the P2K/P1K have voltage regulation so no need to add resistors, a real plus for a novice like me.  I'm guessing I would need to install resistors to install an LM-3.

I think sound adds significantly as long as the sound is quality and not too loud.  Being a novice, I lack the knowledge and skill to select speakers and to retrofit them within a locomotive.  Given my situation, the only way sound will occur on my layout is:
 purchase a new sound equipped loco or hire someone to install.  RailPro LM-3's are not available in commercial installations and I don't know anyone that is familiar with RP sound installation.

What is the path for an electronics novice to adopt Rail Pro?  Obviously, I could learn but I'm not particularly interested as I don't want to destroy a LM-3 or damage the locomotive.

[CPRail]

I too was a novice (I think I still am) - in fact I was happy to get a light bulb to work! My first two installs where Athearn DCC-ready locos with the 9 pin plug. I plugged in a LM-2S, wired up a Keep-Alive (helpful, but not absolutely required for sound), the associated bridge rectifier (not needed for LM-3S and newer) and wired up an iPhone 4 speaker (available from Group owner Bill - www.pdc.ca). Then came the challenge on figuring out how to get everything to fit in the shell. I DID NOT attempt any lighting. I just wanted to get it plugged in and moving.

The ULT series of sounds are superb. I highly recommend them.

iPhone 4 speakers were my standard until I ran into space issues. Then I used some sugar cube speakers. After trying some Scale Sound Systems speakers for my Big Alcos, I've since switched to them as my standard speaker.

I've done a P2K GP30 and S3 and didn't add any resistors - YMMV. The biggest challenge is getting everything to fit, especially with today's units jammed full of weight and electronics. Bowser Canadian SD40-2s are an exciting challenge, but doable.

Start with an Athearn quick plug equipped unit. They already have lights on the boards, and the speaker hook-up is just 2 wires to the LM-3S. Get it to fit under the shell and play around. Then try another one. Each one will get easier and soon you'll be doing them easy-peasy.

RPUG is great for help and ideas. Don't be afraid to ask.

[crzytrnbuf]

I was a novice also But to date have Done 7 LMS-3 in Kato Athearn,Rapido,Scale Trains. all with iphone 4s speakers I think my next attempt will be to try Blue Box Athearns I have a Ton of DC Locomotives. I agree it gets easier as you progress after each installation. I was influenced by Bill Brillenger his videos and Kpack's Videos were the reasons I went with Rail Pro never look back move a head one Locomotive at a time Thanks KPack and Bill and all the members.

[IDRick]

Hey guys,

Thanks for thoughtful comments and encouragement!  Special hat tip to Ian who has sent images of his RP install to a P2K GP-30!  I'm a visual learner so pictures are always most appreciated to enhance my understanding.  In the comments below, I will post to the TCS decoder site as they example installs for conventional dcc.

So let me start with my locomotives.  I believe the most difficult/impossible install will be to my P2K SW9.  TCS recommends their M1 decoder which has the following dimensions: (L x W x H): 0.587" x 0.365" x 0.135".  The LM-3 is significantly larger: 1.50 x 0.68 x 0.25 Inches and most likely will not fit.  The SW9 is a sweet running little switcher but may be a candidate for selling on ebay to help pay for Rail Pro...   The TCS install is here: http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/life-sw891200/m1

I have two P2K GP30's.  TCS provides recommendations for a decoder, keep alive, and a speaker.  Their install involves some extensive milling of the frame which I cannot do.  Their install is shown here:  http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/life-proto-2000-gp30/wdk-kat-3  Their recommended decoder is about same size as the LM-3 so it should be relatively easy to install non-sound rail pro to the GP-30's.

I have an Atlas Trainman GP38-2.  TCS recommends a decoder that is:0.969" x 0.661" x 0.193" which is a half inch shorter in length than the LM-3 or LM-3s.  The link to the install is here: http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/atlas-trainman-gp38-2/t1p-sh  I think the LM-3 will fit but I don't see room for a speaker, do you?

I have two Athearn Blue Box locomotives (GP38-2 and GP40-2).  Both have been recently tuned up, electrical contact improved with the so called 5-wire fix, headlights replaced with LED's and have a nine pin JST harness.  Should have plenty of room for a LM-3, not sure about a speaker.  The TCS install is shown here: http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/athearn-gp38-2/mc2

The Proto 1000 F-3A appears challenging to me since I have not soldered electronic components before.  TCS has two different recommended approaches for the engine decoder, see below

Version 1 use the original board but solder connections 
              http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/life-proto-1000-f3a/mc2-0
Version 2  clip the wires and remove original board 
              http://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/life-proto-1000-f3a/mc2

I don't think version one is possible with an LM-3 but perhaps version 2 would work for the F-3A?

Based on my reading these installs, I'm thinking non-sound RP should be possible for nearly all my locos except the SW9.  Sound seems to stretch...

[CPRail]

I strongly recommend that you look into Sugar Cube speakers (www.sbs4dcc.com is a good source to start, there are others including soundtraxx and I know that Scale Sound Systems has some as well.

SBS4DCC has 4 different sizes ranging from 8x12 mm up to 13x18 mm. It's the only way I was able to get sound into a P2K S3 along with the LM-3S, bridge rectifier and Keep-Alive.

You can also cut down a iPhone4 speaker quite a lot and still have a usable speaker. See the photo from my P2K GP30 (attached). The rounded out area at the rear is where the speaker will go. All the speaker was the octagonal housingholding the actual speaker (sorry, I didn't get a shot with the speaker installed).

Sound can be had, you just have to work at it.

I'm currently fighting with a Rapido SW1200RS, so I understand your space issue. I may have to toss the Rapido board and hardwire in the LM-3S, but I still have to figure out the lighting.

[IDRick]

Hi Ian,

What did you use to mill out the rear of the GP30?  My GP30 still has the original 1.5-volt headlights and will need to be switched out with an LED + resistor or at least adding a resistor.  Was your GP30 a Life Like P2K or a Walthers P2K?  Mine is a Life Like.  I understand why you put in a Stay alive but why the bridge rectifier?

Thanks for your assistance my friend!

Rick

[IDRick]

It is interesting that there are simple drop-in decoders for my locos on conventional non-sound DCC.   TCS LL8 drops in the two gp-30's and F-3A at $49 each.  The TCS t1P-sH drops in the Atlas for $40.  The TCS MC-2 drops in the two Athearns for $37 each.  Seems like I am overthinking this and should simply strive for non-sound control on either conventional DCC or Rail Pro.  Saves a lot of head and heartache.  Sound, IMO, is not a game that a novice like me should play in.  Too many variables that I don't know or understand.  I've never had sound before and won't really miss it. Poor quality sound is really annoying so I either pay the piper and have it done professionally with top line electronics and go the KISS route.  There's no piper to pay with Rail Pro as there are no custom installers.  Whew, lots of helpful reading tonight that helped clarify my thoughts and goals.  Non-sound it is!  Now to see what needs to be done for Rail Pro installation of my locos.  Installing some resistors is the starting point for my Proto locomotives.  A hobby is supposed to be relaxing and I need to focus on the aspects that I enjoy and KISS with the rest.

[CPRail]

I use a Dremel #196 High Speed Cutter (looks like a little barrel with cutting flutes) on a flexible shaft on my Dremel-tool clone. I have one for metal and one for plastic. Works like a charm to do milling like that. If I need to cut something off, I use the Heavy Duty fibreglass reinforced cutting discs.

Either way, I highly recommend that, at the bare minimum, you tape off the motor openings and the gear boxes to keep the metal shavings out. Best option is to remove the weights from the loco and then mill, but the tape will protect you about 98%. You DO NOT want to get metal shavings into your motor or drive train.

Also, wear eye protection!

My unit is a Life-Like P2K GP30.

If you have a LM-2S, you need a Bridge Rectifier to install a Keep-Alive. You don't need a BR if you are using a LM-3S. I suspect I was transitioning from LM-2S mentality to LM-3S mentality and just installed the BR on auto-pilot.

[IDRick]

Thanks for info Ian, always helpful my friend!

Yesterday, I did the novice thing over lunch. I thought, hmmm, wonder what the custom installers charge for milling frames and installing decoders?  The two places I called will not touch a loco unless they do the whole installation.  Understandable, don't want to be blamed for a poor installation by a user where they only contributed part of installation.  Also, nobody will look do a rail pro install as they do not have a system to test the install nor are they distributors so they will pay full price for LM-3s.  I assumed the charges would be high, probably too high.  We novices are on our own and must strive find fellow railroaders who will provide assistance.

Ian suggested looking the sugar cubes.  I found a good ESU cube that looked promising and watched a couple youtube videos with locos + this speaker installed, sounds great! 

I read a couple posts where operators had installed cubes in the roof of the cab and claimed awesome sound (but no video).  Seems like the wires from speaker to the speaker would need to be very long to allow removing the shell for maintenance.  Newbie question, are the wires long enough or does the installer need to splice in additional length?

One of the above installers said they chose not to sell ESU sound decoders because the operator must use the LOKProgrammer for programming.  Is that true?  Yikes, i looked up the price, $143!