Author Topic: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S  (Read 400 times)

cws

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the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« on: April 26, 2021, 03:03:30 PM »
I'm browsing through the Walther's releases for this summer and I see their new SW7 DC/DCC ready model has a DCC Next18 plug in it....  WTF is going on?....  The one thing I hate about standards is the fact that there are so many to choose from!  (Apparently this new standard is a few years old and the NMRA hasn't signed off on it yet but vendors have started implementing it.) Maybe I'll send Walthers my thoughts.... 

Generally it looks like our installations rip out any existing boards due to space limitations but this is getting crazy!  It doesn't look like any one on RPUG has upgraded a Next18 capable loco to RailPro as of yet.  It would be so nice if DCC ready was a 9 pin wiring harness and a cheapo board we could just swap out! 

I reached out to Tim at RE for his thoughts.  Will let you know what I hear. 

Carl

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2021, 11:06:26 PM »
This is the real problem with standards...



The other problem is the NMRA did virtually nothing on the connectors standard for many, many years, and I doubt they had any interaction with the NEM who seem to be much more on the ball about these things. That led to what we have today, People wanted more outputs, the NMRA sat on their hands so the manufacturers responded to the market, first 9 pins (US) then importing what was being done in Europe.

It's a brave move by Walthers to put the Next18 plug in their upcoming SW7. While I can understand the smaller size of the decoder would be attractive for a small model I believe they're locking everyone into a single supplier (I think only ESU makes Next18 stuff currently) which the DCC crowd seems to quite loudly disprove of and they're locking everyone into 4 outputs.

As for your wish, 9 pin is dead; it's gone the same way as 8 pin. 21 pin is what is now and hopefully everyone can see the forest for the trees and can get on board with PLuX; or we invent something even better

- Tim

Alan

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2021, 08:03:50 AM »
Universal plug adapter. Works regardless of number of pins.

51CfdMbnMaL._AC_SX522_.jpg
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Gibs

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2021, 08:58:14 AM »
I'm going to have to agree with Alan, if we are installing LM's in their current format. Just to even get enough space in modern made loco's now is a premium. All makes seem to be intent on winning the "Newton Cup" for the most wagons that their loco can pull so every cubic mm is packed full of ballast. So something has to go, and for me its usually the factory PCB.
Cya Down The Line.

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021, 10:26:09 AM »
I don't disagree, it's what we do but the point is why do we have to? Ring not getting on board is why. By far the most popular format today is 21MTC which has been around for a long time now. When was the last time you saw a new release model come with a 9 pin connector on the motherboard? Even re-releases of older models are being put out with 21MTC motherboards.

Now I'm not a fan of 21MTC, it was royally stuffed up and pretty much remains so. I'd prefer PLuX to become the new thing for it's versatility and actual cross-compatibility. I rekon some sort of edge connector would be even better.

Anyway, the OP's post seems to be more on about the astonishment on another type of connector than that it has to be ripped out as usual and wishing that the 9 pin connector was still the popular motherboard connector today.

- Tim

cws

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021, 04:55:18 PM »
thanks for all the info...   :-\

Has anyone seen an official position from RE yet or just assuming?  I'm hopeful that something is in the works....

(my query to RE hasn't been answered yet...)

Carl

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2021, 09:48:35 AM »
The last official reply I got, which was probably a few years ago now, was "you can use an adapter harness".  Not the most helpful answer when it comes to today's models. From memory because I don't have that email anymore is that there wasn't enough market (read models equipped for 21 pin) for him to consider it. I'd say that market ratio has well and truly been reversed but I still don't expect to see a 21MTC/PLuX/Next18 LM anytime soon.

- Tim

cws

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2021, 12:52:45 PM »
This is the response I received from RE...

The Next18 was obviously designed for N scale and smaller scale locos.  The 18 pin plug is small and the defined circuit board area is smaller than for the 21 pin DCC decoder.  So the Next18 maybe a reasonable choice for N scale locos.  However, we think Walthers choice of Next18 in HO locos (switch engines) was not the best decision.   We see that new 4 axle Walthers locos such as GP9 have DCC 21 pin.  21 pin modules are pretty small and we would think would not be a challenge to put into any HO loco (even switch engines).  We would not expect the Next18 to be used in many HO locos at all mostly because Next18 supports only 4 light outputs (with sound version). It could be a good thing for Ring Engineering if Next18 becomes a N scale standard because Next18 defines a module size.   If that is the case, at least we would know what size module to design for N scale. 

If you have a Next18 loco you can of course always remove any circuit boards and wire in a 9 pin wiring harness.
Please let us know if you have any more questions.

Thank you for contacting Ring Engineering!

darryl.trains

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2021, 01:38:11 PM »
 First there was 8 pin then 9. Then on to 18 with 21 coming.  It's still DCC that is at the heart of the matter !

I think change is always out there but for a lot of us hardwiring the modules, there might not be an issue.  Doubt if I will be changing any more decoders for our club as most of the engines have be converted to DCC 8-9 pin.

As far as myself, I have converted all most all my engines the RP that I use at home. If fact I might thin the roster as I have just too many engines, can I say that?   I know the market is strong for On30 engines but with RP installed?

TOF in Arid-Zona
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 01:41:08 AM by darryl.trains »

TwinStar

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2021, 08:37:29 AM »
This is the response I received from RE...

The Next18 was obviously designed for N scale and smaller scale locos.  The 18 pin plug is small and the defined circuit board area is smaller than for the 21 pin DCC decoder.  So the Next18 maybe a reasonable choice for N scale locos.  However, we think Walthers choice of Next18 in HO locos (switch engines) was not the best decision.   We see that new 4 axle Walthers locos such as GP9 have DCC 21 pin.  21 pin modules are pretty small and we would think would not be a challenge to put into any HO loco (even switch engines).  We would not expect the Next18 to be used in many HO locos at all mostly because Next18 supports only 4 light outputs (with sound version). It could be a good thing for Ring Engineering if Next18 becomes a N scale standard because Next18 defines a module size.   If that is the case, at least we would know what size module to design for N scale. 

If you have a Next18 loco you can of course always remove any circuit boards and wire in a 9 pin wiring harness.
Please let us know if you have any more questions.

Thank you for contacting Ring Engineering!

Hasn't Ring been 'designing' an N scale decoder now for at least the last 8 years? RailPro is due for a HUGE update/upgrade and yet he can't even release a N scale decoder or an HO one with a 21 pin? Man, and I used to ridicule DCC or being behind the times...
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G8B4Life

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Re: the next big thing(s)... Next18/18S
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2021, 09:46:58 AM »
Hasn't Ring been 'designing' an N scale decoder now for at least the last 8 years? RailPro is due for a HUGE update/upgrade and yet he can't even release a N scale decoder or an HO one with a 21 pin? Man, and I used to ridicule DCC or being behind the times...

I can't really speak for the N scale as I know so little about it but I suspect Ring doesn't see the same market as HO and large scale, which I think the latter went over in a big way so he probably devotes the major part of his energy to them, plus the difficulty of shrinking the transmitter even more for N scale could be problematic, given that none of the other comparable wireless systems out there are for N scale either. Not defending the lack of progress, just throwing out some very real speed humps.

As for the 21 pin version, that almost beggars belief that that hasn't happened or even interest gauged. One would have to be very disconnected from what's happening in the model train world to not see that everything is coming set up for 21 pins these days (seriously, when was the last release anyone saw that came with a 9 pin plug?) or people are buying 21 pin motherboards to convert models that don't have 21 pin motherboards in them, and room for harnesses is fast becoming non existent in models.

RailPro is starting to loose ground back to DCC at a concerning rate. While European DCC systems have had much of what RP has had in the way of graphical control etc this wasn't much concern as the use in the North American market is negligible. With what TCS and ISE are doing the threat to RP is real. It won't be long before they figure out DCC directly to the locomotive like how RP operates. The only thing we'll have left after that is load sharing.

- Tim