Author Topic: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue  (Read 14472 times)

Espeelark

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Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« on: June 12, 2021, 04:57:29 PM »
I'm at my wits end guys....

I have installed LM-3S modules in 3 locos so far. Two Athearn and one (red box) Atlas. I've hard-wired all three.
While the Atlas U30C runs great, both the Athearn GP40X and SD40T-2 have significant electrical pick-up/continuity issues. The locos move only a hair and then die, then re-start, move, die, re-start, etc., etc., etc....
See the attachment for a photo of the hardwired LM-3S module and iphone speaker in my SD40T-2 unit.
NOTE: I don't have "Keep Alives" installed and was hopeful to NOT have to use them because my staging yards on the layout I'm building has optical sensors between the tracks that kills the power to the track(s) when the train gets to the end of the track. KA's would circumvent that and the train would keep on rolling....

I did numerous interweb searches on the issue and there was quite a bit of concensus around poor electrical pick up between the metal sideframes and the square, bronze bushings on the ends of the axles due to the chemical blackening Athearn uses on the sheet metal sideframes.
I used a very fine emery board and sanded off that "skin" of chemical blackening on the slot faces in the sideframe where the bronze bushings sit. I then used a cotton swab dampened in WD-40 (non-polar cleaner) the clean all of those surfaces.
See the attachment for a photo of the metal sideframes at issue.

One the test bench, I can just touch/move one of the trucks slightly and the unit loses power as the engine sound cuts out. Or, I'll slightly pick up one of the trucks and it will lose power. I'm at a loss why it loses power since the other truck is still firmly seated on the rails. The SD40T-2 has six axles making electrical contact so why does a slight "jiggle" of one of the trucks cause the whole thing to lose continuity?

It shouldn't be this hard.....


Espeelark (Paul Mac)
Modeling the SP in Ohio
"Bad is never good until worse happens...."

Alan

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 05:15:59 PM »
WD40 has a high dielectric strength on the order of thousands of volts. Exactly the opposite of what you want for electrical continuity. Re-clean with IPA or contact cleaner and try it again.
Alan

LK&O Railroad website

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

Espeelark

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2021, 05:39:10 PM »
Hi Alan - thanks for the thought.
There's been a lot of discussion about what to use to clean track. MRH had an article in their May 2019 issue going into great length and Polar vs. Non-Polar cleaning agents. WD40 is one of those items that has a lower dielectric constant (2.4) rating it as a non-polar agent good for cleaning rail and electrical contacts. IPA has a dielectric constant of 18. I have a friend who has a Doctorate in Electrical Engineering and he agrees with the use of Mineral Spirits or WD-40 for cleaning rail, etc. If you read that MRH article you will see that alcohol is not recommended.
I may try again with mineral spirits but am not hopeful as that has a similar dielectric constant to WD-40. I'll report back.
Espeelark (Paul Mac)
Modeling the SP in Ohio
"Bad is never good until worse happens...."

Alan

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 07:08:08 PM »
There is a big difference between wiping on / wiping off (track and wheel) and spraying on / evaporating off (your application).

You are referencing the dielectric strength of the liquids themselves. I'm talking about the dielectric strength of the residue the WD40 left behind. WD40 is not 100% volatile. The dielectric strength of IPA or contact cleaner is irrelevant. What is relevant is they are 100% volatile meaning they don't leave a residue when evaporated off.

wd40.PNG
Alan

LK&O Railroad website

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

G8B4Life

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 09:21:02 PM »
I can't see anything obvious in the small photos. Are you sure they actually loose power and it's not intermittent shorting?

I remember a run of models (not US) that had the same setup for electrical pick up. Unfortunately not only did the metal "sideframe" have the bearing slots coated like you found but the metal they were made from was just crap quality too and solder didn't really want to stick to the pickup wire tab very well. If it's not intermittent shorting and they are loosing power then I'd look for loose joints.

I also remember reading somewhere where someone had gone and eliminated the metal sideframe from the equation and soldered the pickup wires straight to the axle bearings.

- Tim

Alan

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2021, 11:45:57 AM »
Sorry, I misspoke when I said "The dielectric strength of IPA or contact cleaner is irrelevant". It certainly is relevant to solubilizing the WD40. What I should have said is "The dielectric strength of IPA or contact cleaner is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make" which is clean with a solvent that evaporates away completely.
Alan

LK&O Railroad website

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

Espeelark

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 12:48:36 PM »
NP Alan....
I only used a cotton swab dampened in WD-40 to wipe the surfaces. Never sprayed them directly from the can. Still however to your point, there may be residue left behind.
I just purchased some CRC 2-26. I'll let you know how that goes.
Espeelark (Paul Mac)
Modeling the SP in Ohio
"Bad is never good until worse happens...."

Alan

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 01:14:23 PM »
Isn't 2-26 just CRC's version of WD40? I would be leery of anything labeled lubricant.

I believe the CRC product you want is QD. https://www.crcindustries.com/products/qd-174-contact-cleaner-11-wt-oz-02130.html

It is mostly naphtha which is a more powerful substitute for mineral spirits. Kinda stinky but generally so little is used it doesn't matter.
Alan

LK&O Railroad website

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

Espeelark

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 03:41:50 PM »
Well - I repeated the cleaning process of the metal sideframes and the square bronze bushings/bearings except that I used CRC 2-26 which is billed as a "lubricant helps prevent electrical malfunctions and restore damaged equipment caused by water penetration, humidity, condensation and corrosion."
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of personal recommendations for CRC 2-26 and its use on electrical equipment and the associated Before & After results. I think I'm chasing a red-herring. I'm of the opinion its something else but I fail to see what that might be.
I have proven to myself that it's not a short, because I wired an LED across the tracks and it stays on/lit when the loco intermittently stops/starts.
All connections are tight sound.
The LM-3S appears to be HIGHLY sensitive to even the slightest loss of electrical continuity.
Gahhhh!
Espeelark (Paul Mac)
Modeling the SP in Ohio
"Bad is never good until worse happens...."

Alan

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 08:04:00 PM »
Well - I repeated the cleaning process of the metal sideframes and the square bronze bushings/bearings except that I used CRC 2-26 which is billed as a "lubricant helps prevent electrical malfunctions and restore damaged equipment caused by water penetration, humidity, condensation and corrosion."
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of personal recommendations for CRC 2-26 and its use on electrical equipment and the associated Before & After results. I think I'm chasing a red-herring. I'm of the opinion its something else but I fail to see what that might be.
I have proven to myself that it's not a short, because I wired an LED across the tracks and it stays on/lit when the loco intermittently stops/starts.
All connections are tight sound.
The LM-3S appears to be HIGHLY sensitive to even the slightest loss of electrical continuity.
Gahhhh!

You repeated the exercise with another brand of essentially the same stuff. The 2-26 SDS bears this out. Different results shouldn't be expected.
2-26.PNG

Since I was already at the bench working on my helix electronics today I decided to do a little test for us.

I setup two pieces (~ 10' each) of 22AWG solid copper wire with bare ends crossing at 90 degrees on one end and my multimeter attached to the other end. Everything was taped down to the bench so nothing moved. A weight (3/4" hex nut) was taped such that I could raise and lower it to hold the bare wire ends together at a repeatable pressure. The bare ends were lightly abraded with 600g and cleaned with contact cleaner.
 
The initial measurement of the circuit was ~0.5Ω. I pressed down slightly on the nut. The measurement did not change. The ~0.5Ω resistance was not the contact point resistance but rather the wire and multimeter connections to it so 0.5 became the baseline.

I wiped the wires with a WD40 saturated Qtip. The resistance increased to ~0.9Ω. I then used the dry end of the Qtip to wipe off the WD40. The resistance was ~0.6Ω. I then cleaned the wires with contact cleaner. The contact resistance returned to the original 0.5Ω. I repeated the test three times and got equivalent results each time. Clearly WD40, especially when wet, introduces resistance into the circuit however, that resistance is very small.

Now, had I started with badly fouled wire ends with potentially thousands of ohms of resistance and hit them with WD40 it would be a different story. The WD40 could potentially reduce the resistance a thousandfold. I suspect this is the case with the anecdotal evidence you find on the web. That and WD40's well established moisture displacement electrical fixes. Old timers like me remember drying out wet distributor caps with WD40. But we know your problem is not moisture related.

Let's put the test observations into LM3 perspective. Assume 15v at the LM3 and power transmitted through a single wheel set. We have 0.2 ohms of WD40 added resistance to the circuit. Ohm's law tells us the voltage at the LM3 will be a mere 0.04v less or 14.96v. Obviously WD40 is not the problem.

I was right that WD40 leaves a film and that film has resistance. I was wrong about the amount of resistance in the film. It is a red herring. My apologies. At least we know for certain now.

In my defense, the test also showed the superiority of contact cleaner over WD40 for cleaning bare metal.
Alan

LK&O Railroad website

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

Espeelark

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 05:37:52 PM »
Thanks for the update Alan - good information.
That was a great little experiment you devised to quantify the effects from residual lubricant-type cleaners.
Espeelark (Paul Mac)
Modeling the SP in Ohio
"Bad is never good until worse happens...."

Espeelark

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2021, 08:14:36 PM »
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

What it comes down to is the fact that the design of each truck takes the electrical pick-up from three axles and funnels them through a single grommet/rivet that connects to a metal plate on the inside of the plastic gearbox. That plate has the tab the electrical pick-up wire is attached to. Additionally, the wall of the plastic gearbox is sandwiched between these two metal plates - an insulator!. What genius thought that was a good idea? So, if the grommet is not making good electrical contact (via loose or dirty surfaces) with these two metal plates, you are hosed. Like I was!
I've attached an excerpt from Athearn's Parts Explosion to illustrate my point.
  • The pink circled item is the single grommet and only electrically conductive item connecting the two metal plates.
  • The blue circled item is the metal sideframe that the three axle's square, bronze bearings rest in.
  • The green circled item is the metal plate on the inside of the plastic gearbox that has the tab (on top) for the electrical pick-up wire.
I wound up drilling a small hole in the metal sideframe, soldering a small jumper wire into that hole, and then soldering the other end of that jumper wire to the pick-up wire tab thereby completely circumventing the grommet. Attached is a photo of the truck showing the jumper wire in place but not yet soldered.

Happy to report that after doing both sides of each truck the electrical continuity problem disappeared - which to me pretty much proves the grommet to be the root cause...

Woo-Hoo!
Espeelark (Paul Mac)
Modeling the SP in Ohio
"Bad is never good until worse happens...."

Alan

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Re: Athearn Electrical Pick Up Issue
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2021, 09:09:27 AM »
Congratulations!
Alan

LK&O Railroad website

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro