New user, poor experience

[The_Dave]

So....very recent convert to RP. I’m using it in conjunction with my NCE power cab.

Pro’s:
Awesome interface/color display.
Easy programming.
Cool features and functions
Wireless!

Cons:
My loco’s do not run anywhere as good as my native DCC units.
Constant issues over turnouts, power drops/shorts.
Running experience is poor at best.

As much as I love the idea of RP, so far I’m not feeling it’s worth it. Maybe RP demands absolutely perfect (and I mean perfect!) track work and has zero tolerance for anything less. I know I could run the same locos I’ve converted all day long on DCC and have ZERO issues.

I’m sure I’ve done something to make my own trouble but I’ve got no idea what it might be.

Frustrated!

[G8B4Life]

Welcome Dave.

We are here to help if we can but some details on your installs will help us.

What have you installed RP in?

Did you keep the factory mother boards or do clean "hardwire" installs?

Those two questions are good starters; if you kept them some factory mother boards contain an RF suppression circuit and RP usually does not like these leading to very poor performance (it seems most DCC decoders are not too fazed by RF suppression circuits but RP is). I think most users here do clean hardwire installs as a matter of course but I'm sure other will chime in also on the install part.

- Tim

[nodcc4me]

RailPro doesn't demand perfect track, but it is more sensitive to dirty track and wheels, switch frogs, and low voltage in spots. If you are running on DCC power, it will make the track dirty much more than RailPro and that will transfer to your locomotive wheels. Some DCC equipped locomotives come with keep-alive capacitors from the factory, which will help them to overcome the track problems with DCC. If you have RP equipped locomotives that don't run well, here are some things you can try:
1. Clean your track and wheels often.
2. Check your layout for low voltage areas and add power to those areas.
3. Install keep-alive capacitors in problem locomotives. Although switch frogs can cause problems for some locomotives,  and there are remedies, it is probably easier to install keep-alives than to mess with the switches.
4. If you don't have a lot of DCC locomotives, switch your power supply to RP and add RP modules to your locomotives.

The RP system is truly superior to antiquated DCC in every way.

[William Brillinger]

And on that note, choose the right product for track cleaning... The old standard of Rubbing Alcohol is actually a terrible choice. Since I switched to mineral spirits, things are much better on my layout.

In depth info:
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh2019-05/publishers-musings
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/running-extra/2020-02/publishers-welcome

[The_Dave]

Good stuff guys. I’ll answer the questions first then onto some observations/thoughts.

The loco’s in question are 3 Kato  SD40-2’s. I’ve done a clean hardwire installation with all wires soldered and shrink wrapped. Full LED conversion. Install has sound too. LM-3S Receiver.

Track is code 83 flex. All joints soldered. Feeders approximately every 3-4 feet.

Using in conjunction with a NCE DCC Powercab.

Turnouts are Atlas.

Track is exceedingly clean.

Thoughts:

My issues are only where the loco crosses a turnout. Most of the time if my speed is up I can roll right through no issue, not always but mostly. Moving through at a crawl is not so great, I have issues every time. I believe I’m shorting between the flanges and the point rails. I’m not 100% positive but I’m pretty dang sure.

I am interested in possibly installing a KA. I read somewhere that the LM-3 Receiver is pre-wired to install a kA without the need for a bridge rectifier. Could someone point me in the direction of a Wiring diagram for this?

Thanks!

[William Brillinger]

Wiring diagrams can be found in PDF's at the bottom of this page:
https://www.pdc.ca/rr/catalog/product/harnesses-keep-alives-and-other-accessories/63

What kind of turnouts are you using?
I had a lot of problems with my Peco Insulfrogs and LM-XS's until I covered the frog to prevent a micro-short that was happening.

[G8B4Life]

Bill, The turnouts are Atlas.

Turnouts are Atlas.

Dave, which Atlas turnouts? I'm not familiar with Atlas turnouts.

Here's the link to the MRH thread Bill posted in about his mod to the Peco turnouts. Probably not relevant to the Atlas turnouts (I don't have any so I don't know how they do their frogs) but good knowledge to have none the less: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/19373.

Have you watched the LM's information screen when you go over a turnout to see what it tells you? I'd be doing that if you haven't, it should tell you what the LM is experiencing when the issue occurs.

If this issue is only happening at turnouts as you say then I can't really say that's an RP fault but sounds like a turnout or Kato fault. I presume you've checked the Kato's that all wheels are in gauge etc? Installing a KA might help but KA's are designed for overcoming interrupted power, I don't know what a KA will do for a short.

Apart from the issues at turnouts it works fine the rest of the time?

- Tim

[The_Dave]

Tim, Et ALL....

The turnouts are all Atlas Code 83 "Snap Switches" which i'm controlling with TAM Valley Depot micro switch machines. An Example here: https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-82-ho-cd-83-22-radius-snap-switch-manual-l.aspx

To be clear, I am very happy with RP and I believe its the way to go, I Apologize if my original post came across negative but I was frustrated and it had been a long night.

The more I investigate the more I'm certain that my issue is the turnout itself, I think they might be on the cheaper end of whats considered a quality unit. Live and Learn. I like the Idea of KA's but I don't want to band-aid a obvious problem. I think the Kato units are not the issue but I'll confess that I have not checked the gauge on the trucks to see if the wheels are in gauge. Its on the list, just got to get me a gauge. Going to visit Arnie's Trains tomorrow in Westminster CA, I'm sure they'll have one!

On the subject of turnouts, What can you guys off as a known good solution? What do you recommend if price was not a consideration?"

Thanks everyone for the help, its good to have a group like this to bounce off of!

[KPack]

Dave - sorry for your troubles.  The points that everyone brought up are valid.  It sounds to me like it could one of two things (or both)....low quality turnouts, or power interruption across frogs.  In my experience Railpro has been more sensitive to power than DCC units, for the reasons mentioned above.  When the sound is on Railpro is even more sensitive to power continuity.  Adding keep-alive's has solved all power issues for me and allows Railpro to run at its absolute best.  Yes, you technically don't need keep alive's if your track and wheels are kept very clean, but my reality is that I run on different layouts and they are most definitely not clean. 

Regardless of what you do with the switches I would still install keep-alive's.  They are easy to do.  If you hardwired all your LM-3S's in, adding a keep-alive will be a walk in the park for you.

-Kevin

[The_Dave]

KPack, you should be sorry! It was your videos that got me hooked!

Honestly, its not so much trouble but just a journey of discovery. I'm totally on board with RP, its the future and its exactly what I wanted in a system, I just want to make it work as best as I can. The more I read the more i feel that KA's are a good idea regardless of this particular problem. Ill have to go down that rabbit hole next. For now I wan to eliminate the low hanging fruit, Ill check my trucks to see if the wheels are in gauge (i suspect they are) and I'm going to start working on a plan to replace my turnouts. I have a relatively small layout and as my experience grows (already has) this might give me an opportunity to not only improve the quality of the turnouts, but to make some changes that will make my over-all experience when operating much better.

Id also like to say this to the group, thus far my experience with RPUG members has been outstanding. I've read almost every thread posted here and the level of modeling professionalism as well and the quality of the posts are outstanding. I'm a member of my FB groups and most of the stuff posted is crap, not so much here. I'm glad to be a member here and on the RP team.

Thanks Guys!

Ps a picture of one of the installs...

[KPack]

Dave - very clean install.  You ought to be proud of your work.  The nice thing about Kato locomotives is that there is plenty of room to easily install a keep alive.  No huge weight to deal with!

Glad the videos helped!  If only I had more time to do nicer ones, and more skill.  They are pretty basic and amateur-ish but at least get the point across.

And I agree about our group here.  We have probably the most upstanding and helpful individuals here.  It is a close community and we are all respectful to each other.  I hope we can continue to be a help to you.

-Kevin

[G8B4Life]

Ps a picture of one of the installs...

Hang on a sec, I watched a RP install YouTube video just two nights ago that featured a Kato SD40-2 with that exact piece of fibreglass board and styrene under the LM in it! Busted?  If so your video isn't shabby either.

Back to the topic, those Atlas turnouts are really sharp, I don't think I'd recommend them for 6 axle power if I saw them in person though I can't see any way you'd get a short as they are not power routing, unless the wheels of the loco's overlap to the opposite rail at the frog like Bill's experience with the Peco turnouts. It's not easy to make out if that could happen from the blurry "enlarged" picture on the Atlas website.

Dismissing the short theory for the time being voltage drop within the turnout could be the problem. A bit harder to measure "live" on DCC than plain DC so with the track power off measure the resistance between the outer rails and the inner rails with a multimeter, it should be virtually zero. Also, do as I mentioned earlier and watch the LM info screen on the HC while traversing the turnout and see what it tells you.

As to turnout brands, well that's a can of worms right there but in this country (not the US) Peco is very popular and their Code 83 line is gaining a lot of popularity in the US as well. They don't have anything as sharp as Atlas in the code 83 range (I think the sharpest is a #6) but
your loco's and rollingstock would probably thank you for that. As to expense, yes I imagine the range is just as expensive in the US as it is here which is quite expensive. Another brand that's possibly worth looking into is the new range by Walthers that they are doing after Shinohara pulled out of the market.

- Tim

[The_Dave]

Tim, I suspect that was my video. Like Kevin says, not super professional (and not even as good as Kevin’s) but if it helps someone then it’s worth it. Video parts 2 and 3 coming...

The reason for the sharp turnouts is simply a matter of space. My layout is in a bedroom that’s 10’x12’, so it’s an exercise in compromise!

[G8B4Life]

Well I look forward to parts 2 and 3. Don't fret about professionalism it's the content that matters. The more people we have doing videos etc the more people we might get converted.

The reason for the sharp turnouts is simply a matter of space. My layout is in a bedroom that’s 10’x12’, so it’s an exercise in compromise!

In that case we might just have to work with what you've got to improve them if they are indeed the problem. Definitely do the voltage loss tests I mentioned (resistance and LM Info screen). It could be that the turnouts rely on blade pressure on the stock rails or pressure from a piece of metal that the blades slide on for electrical continuity. Those scenarios can be fixed by soldering a small piece of flexible wire between the stock and closure rails, and also the closure rails and the blades if needed.

- Tim

[Alan]

A six axle loco has a lot of wheels picking up power. Dead frogs shouldn't pose much of an issue. Certain all the wheel pickups are working?

For all wheels to get power the trackwork must be flat (x and y axes) so as not to lift axles. Is the trackwork flat in and out of the switch?

A wheel tread short at the switch should trigger the breaker in your DCC system. Does your wiring pass the quarter test on the turnout?