Author Topic: New install issues  (Read 8396 times)

William Brillinger

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2017, 05:38:42 PM »
Maybe I wasn't clear. The decoder was plugged into the dcc ready 9 pin plug and I had set the maximum voltage for the loco using the test feature. I just didn't run it instead just worked with sounds because the shell was off. The only loose wires were the ones for lights.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Let me see if I've got this:

- The decoder was connected properly.
- The loco speed was set to zero.
- You tried the sounds for 15 minutes.
- The LM-3S melted.

I've never heard of an LM getting hot like that.
Can you post some photos of your setup and the LM?

I'm sorry to hear you're having so many issues with this.
I suggest you give Tim at Ring Engineering a call on Monday and see what can be done for you.
- Bill Brillinger, RPUG Admin

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, owner of Precision Design Co., and RailPro Dealer.


Blueleader

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2017, 06:10:08 PM »
You got it. I did get the cl1 laptop hc software to save by starting the program as administrator. I had installed it as such but not ran it as admin.

Quote
Sorry, I misunderstood. Let me see if I've got this:

- The decoder was connected properly.
- The loco speed was set to zero.
- You tried the sounds for 15 minutes.
- The LM-3S melted.

I've never heard of an LM getting hot like that.
Can you post some photos of your setup and the LM?

I'm sorry to hear you're having so many issues with this.
I suggest you give Tim at Ring Engineering a call on Monday and see what can be done for you.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 08:42:02 PM by William Brillinger »

G8B4Life

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2017, 08:49:03 PM »
If the HC-Sim is not keeping it's settings, that is a sign of a permissions issue in the install.
Maybe Tim (the other Tim) will chime in here with instructions.

HC Sim (or RPA for that matter) should not need to be run as administrator from memory. I wonder if it's somehow an old version or has not installed correctly. What Win version are you running on the laptop and what version of HC Sim?

For the LM-3S melting; that's an interesting one. Though RailPro has temperature detection it appears that does not equal over temperature protection! Here is a couple of things I would highly recommend you check before trying another LM.

* Check the output voltage of the PWR-56; make sure it matches the specified output voltage and is not higher.

* Check the loco's wiring and circuit board. I'm not too sure about 9 pin wired loco's but when everyone used 8 pin it certainly was possible to wire the loco incorrectly so it'd work on DC but blow up DCC decoders.

For the HC, check what internal software version your HC is running. Assuming you got a HC-2 (not 2b) I doubt it has the updated software version that'll allow it to see LM-3's, though it should still see PWR-56's.

- Tim

PatP

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 09:25:59 AM »

HC Sim (or RPA for that matter) should not need to be run as administrator from memory. I wonder if it's somehow an old version or has not installed correctly. What Win version are you running on the laptop and what version of HC Sim?
....
* Check the loco's wiring and circuit board. I'm not too sure about 9 pin wired loco's but when everyone used 8 pin it certainly was possible to wire the loco incorrectly so it'd work on DC but blow up DCC decoders.
...

- Tim

Tim,

I have to run HC Sim (and Assistant) as an administrator on Win 10 (I hate Windows), and disable "virus" protection (another waste) to be able to communicate through the USB port with a CI-1. The responses I get from win-doze are different each time depending upon the mood it and the virus is in. But, that shouldn't apply to the HC-2s since they communicate directly and only pull data from Assistant, using the PC as an interface to the internet, at least that's how I understand it.

I don't know which "version" of Athearn Genesis he has but, I've got three SD70Ms. Two were DCC ready with 9-pin JSTs. There are a couple of wires that are "wrong" colors but, they still go to the correct locations. I simply pulled a 9-pin jumper board out, which he called the DC board, and plugged the LM-3S in. There is no 8-pin NMRA plug. Sound still has to come from the 6-pin on the other end of the LM-3S. The JSTs only plug in one direction, pretty fool-proof. (I still wish the yellow and white wires on the 6-pin were different colors)

PatP

(did I mention that I hate windows?)

Blueleader

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2017, 10:01:34 AM »
Athearn NS 6514.jpg
This one isn't Genesis, I was thinking about my new NS SD75M #2800.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I upgraded all the software for the cl1 on my laptop running Win7Pro 64bit with all Microsoft updates loaded. I updated the HC via usb to my custom built Asus ROG PC to HC2 rev 1-30 and the PWR56 to Rev 1-10. No issues with software at this point. The cl1 found the PWR56 and then the LM3S right away and communicated with them. The HC never found anything with repeated attempts either before or after software upgrade..

The 9 pin plug will only go in one way due to alignments on the side of the plug. I pulled the LM3S and put the DC plug back in and the loco runs great just as before all this. The Athearn factory DCC ready board never got hot or even warm.

My tester died, leaking battery, so this on is on hold... tested the PWR56 output voltage at the track and it is...?

At this point I cannot find any reason for the meltdown. And the HC has to be faulty since the cl1 works as advertised.


If the HC-Sim is not keeping it's settings, that is a sign of a permissions issue in the install.
Maybe Tim (the other Tim) will chime in here with instructions.

HC Sim (or RPA for that matter) should not need to be run as administrator from memory. I wonder if it's somehow an old version or has not installed correctly. What Win version are you running on the laptop and what version of HC Sim?

For the LM-3S melting; that's an interesting one. Though RailPro has temperature detection it appears that does not equal over temperature protection! Here is a couple of things I would highly recommend you check before trying another LM.

* Check the output voltage of the PWR-56; make sure it matches the specified output voltage and is not higher.

* Check the loco's wiring and circuit board. I'm not too sure about 9 pin wired loco's but when everyone used 8 pin it certainly was possible to wire the loco incorrectly so it'd work on DC but blow up DCC decoders.

For the HC, check what internal software version your HC is running. Assuming you got a HC-2 (not 2b) I doubt it has the updated software version that'll allow it to see LM-3's, though it should still see PWR-56's.

- Tim
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 10:18:43 AM by Blueleader »

Blueleader

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2017, 11:19:38 AM »
Tested voltage at the track with the PWR56 connected and got 14.4v

PatP

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2017, 12:02:45 PM »
You did use the two brown wires on the 6-pin connector supplied with the LM-3S for the speaker and not connection points on the card, correct? Just a question. I would think (gets me into trouble) that it would take a short to burn up the module. I can see the 8-pin NMRA in the pic with no plug so they used the 9-pin on that one. I've got some Atlas units that have jumpers on the board that you have to move to run DCC or RP through the board, but I don't see anything like that in the pic. Could've been internal in the LM-3S. I would say that's highly unlikely but, I had one that wouldn't run the motor right out of the box.

The only time I've had an HC not connect was dirty wheels and track. Even then the HC would see the LM-3 intermittently but, the CI-1 wouldn't talk to it at all, of course part of that could've been me ticking off win-doze and the virus.

Sorry I'm not more help. You can call or email Ring and get an RMA # to send it (them) back. They should be able to figure out what happened. They have great customer service.

PatP

Blueleader

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2017, 01:48:13 PM »
Yes I followed the wiring diagram that came with the LM3S which said use the 2 brown wires off the 6 pin plug for the speaker. If you look close at the pic you can see the small Athearn DC adapter plugged into the 9 pin DCC connector so I can run the loco on DC for now. This pic was taken after I pulled the LM3S off the DCC Connector.

You did use the two brown wires on the 6-pin connector supplied with the LM-3S for the speaker and not connection points on the card, correct? Just a question. I would think (gets me into trouble) that it would take a short to burn up the module. I can see the 8-pin NMRA in the pic with no plug so they used the 9-pin on that one. I've got some Atlas units that have jumpers on the board that you have to move to run DCC or RP through the board, but I don't see anything like that in the pic. Could've been internal in the LM-3S. I would say that's highly unlikely but, I had one that wouldn't run the motor right out of the box.

The only time I've had an HC not connect was dirty wheels and track. Even then the HC would see the LM-3 intermittently but, the CI-1 wouldn't talk to it at all, of course part of that could've been me ticking off win-doze and the virus.

Sorry I'm not more help. You can call or email Ring and get an RMA # to send it (them) back. They should be able to figure out what happened. They have great customer service.

PatP

William Brillinger

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2017, 02:17:06 PM »
Quote
Tested voltage at the track with the PWR56 connected and got 14.4v

Well, the voltage is correct.
- Bill Brillinger, RPUG Admin

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, owner of Precision Design Co., and RailPro Dealer.


nodcc4me

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2017, 07:42:49 AM »
Having never seen an LM melt down, I'm wondering if there is a short in the 9 pin locomotive plug?


Try pushing the reset on the HC2. I have had some weird happenings that were fixed by doing that.
Al

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Blueleader

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2017, 12:54:34 PM »
I tried twice and it didn't change anything. Got the whole kit boxed up and ready to send back to RP.

Having never seen an LM melt down, I'm wondering if there is a short in the 9 pin locomotive plug?


Try pushing the reset on the HC2. I have had some weird happenings that were fixed by doing that.

Alan

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2017, 01:52:05 PM »
Quote
Having never seen an LM melt down, I'm wondering if there is a short in the 9 pin locomotive plug?

Or elsewhere in the loco wiring. Correct DC operation would still work if the short were in a non-motor wire.

Quote
Though RailPro has temperature detection it appears that does not equal over temperature protection!

Unless track power was also being supplied directly to the blue wire and/or the new LM3 ground pin. The module may have shut down but the juice kept flowing because of the power connection downstream from the protection circuitry. Same problem we discussed with attaching keep-alives using the new LM3 ground pin. In this case the 56 may have been a never-exhausting keep alive!

A LM has at its heart a PIC microcontroller. I can find no reference to the PIC family having integral thermal shutdown. The data sheets specifically say the PIC will be harmed if operated beyond spec maximums leading one to believe there is no integral shutdown. I did however find many references to using PIC in conjunction with power management chips that do have thermal shutdown. I wish I had taken pictures back when I took the case off an LM. Can't remember what other active components there were other than the microcontroller. It may be that an LM doesn't have thermal shutdown. Might be too nosy of a question to ask Tim.

Alan

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When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

Blueleader

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2017, 07:39:03 PM »
Melted LM3S

IMG_0072.JPG

RP LM3S board back.JPG
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 06:22:37 AM by William Brillinger »

Alan

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2017, 08:42:03 PM »
It appears the case melted above the SMD tantalum capacitor (A337J). Tantalum caps get very hot when reversed biased or sometimes even explode.
Alan

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When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

G8B4Life

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Re: New install issues
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2017, 06:10:39 AM »
It appears the case melted above the SMD tantalum capacitor (A337J). Tantalum caps get very hot when reversed biased or sometimes even explode.

I had another thought tonight while resting my mind (read dozing) before checking back here, which I'll get to. Alan, the melting of the case is on the 6 pin end, not the 9 pin end where A337J is.  My theory is the audio amplifier was being over driven (too little speaker resistance?). Given that the melting of the case is exactly in line with the speaker wires on the 6 pin JST gives some credit to my theory. On the reverse side of the board, ACN E AL (10 pin IC  top right of picture of board underside) is the vicinity of where the heat was generated. The melt even has the same shape as ACN E AL.

- Tim
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 06:17:07 AM by G8B4Life »