Cannot load sound files from HC-2b to LM-3S

[robert.h.giffin]

William,

I will admit that it was the smoked decoder that was the 'last straw'.  I did nothing but solder a speaker to the two brown wires and it smoked.  I was excited up until that point and I was hoping to hear the sound through this bigger speaker as the other one I was using was one of those puny iPhone speakers (on the other decoder), and then it all came crashing down.  Everything up until that point was simply annoying, frustrating enough but easy enough to surmount.  Can't fix a toasted, melted device, and I even carefully stepped up to this point.

[TwinStar]

As big of a RailPro fan as I am I can understand Robert's frustration. The whole Ring file update/transfer process SUCKS. It is about as user friendly as a .gov website. RailPro may be the best thing ever but if the end user can't update a simple file easily and quickly then the allure of this 'advanced' system will fade. Our current interface reminds me of the green screen Mac I had back in third grade. This segment of RailPro has got to be fixed ASAP. 

[robert.h.giffin]

I just went down and put an ohm meter on the terminals on ALL FOUR of the speakers I have (2 iPhone and 2 SoundTraxx).  They all do the same thing, peg the meter, indicating a short in the speaker.  Not being much of an audio guy I don't know if this is normal (I'll Google it maybe), however, one of those speakers was the little iPhone speaker I was using on the first decoder and it was working fine.  It pegged the meter as well.  And two of these are new in package (one of each type).

This tells me that the speaker was not defective (I have yet to test the audio performance on it because I really have nothing to test it with).  And, as stated in the email I sent to Ring Support, it melted the decoder right at the area where those two brown wires enter the 6-pin connector.  I initially thought I had put the soldering iron on something and it was burning because I couldn't believe that I smoked a decoder, the reason it took a little longer to yank the locomotive off the tracks.

It's good and melted, for sure.  It will be on the way back the Ring Engineering tomorrow or the next day.

[KPack]

Sounds like a short in the amp.  I had one module that melted like that, but I can't remember the circumstances because it was years ago. Sent it back to Ring and they sent a new one free of charge.  You didn't solder the speaker wire while the locomotive was on the tracks, right?

Regardless, issues like this sometimes pop up, but on the whole the system is relatively bulletproof. I've had my share of issues with both hardware and software, but after Ring and I identify the problem we get it resolved and it makes the product better in the end.  I'm pretty sure he made me a beta tester because I was a magnet for issues.

I do agree that the downloads take way too long for how big they are. I would love this aspect of railpro to change.  It really should be a matter of a few seconds and not tens of minutes.  But I'm not a software engineer so I'm have no idea what is involved in making this change.

Kevin

[robert.h.giffin]

No, I soldered the speaker to the 6-pin harness, plugged that harness into the decoder, and then plugged the decoder into the locomotive with an 8-9 pin adapter harness.  Then I placed the locomotive on the track. 

[nodcc4me]

Robert, you said the module shorted at the connection of the speaker wires. Could there possibly be a short in the harness or in the module connector itself?

[robert.h.giffin]

Very well could be.  I will see what Ring says about it.

[Alan]

Speakers are typically spec'd between 2 ohm and 8 ohm impedance. The rating is nominal because frequency changes impedance. Impedance is the combination of resistance and phase in a device driven by an AC signal. Your meter supplies a DC voltage to measure resistance. There is no phase angle of a DC source. As a result, the DC resistance measurement will be less than the AC impedance spec of the speaker. A 2 ohm speaker will look like pegging the meter because the DC resistance will be less than 2 ohms. A 4 ohm speaker would measure an ohm or two. An 8 ohm speaker is usually around 6 ohms. Your meter needs to be accurately calibrated on a low range scale (100 or 10 ohm FS) to measure such low resistances without looking like the meter is pegged.

[KPack]

If I remember right my short was from a loose piece of solder inside the module itself.  The install went well and the locomotive worked fine for a bit, including sound, but then out of the blue the locomotive made a very loud, strange sound, and then went completely dead.  The module was very hot/melted where the two speaker wires went into the module.  Ring inspected it and apparently a small piece of solder had broken loose somehow inside the module and ended up across the leads to the amp, shorting it out.  Killed the module at the same time.  Like I said before Ring replaced it at no charge.  I've never had that problem since.

-Kevin

[G8B4Life]

Well, this is sad news that it's come to this for someone.

Always late to the discussion from the time difference I'll still respond.

From the research I've done, the radios use UDP to transfer the files.

UDP is most definitely used to transfer the files from Rings server to RailPro Assistant. This was discovered ages ago. I don't know what protocol is used between the transmitters in the products, I haven't the tools to find that out. I don't know what's used to transfer files between RPA and the HC / CI-1, that's still on the todo list.

In Tim Rings mind UDP was probably the best choice, less over head etc as you mentioned. That choice has caused a few issues for some but for different reasons. I've studied and am still studying the Ring file transfer and going back on what I've said previously from recent study the data transfer seems pretty robust, just very slow. I haven't seen a dropped packet yet but I'll still studying.

The transfer speed from Rings server to RPA could probably be a lot higher (the files are not actually that big in computing terms), heck have you ever streamed anything on your computer or skyped etc, that's going to be almost 100% of the time UDP. It's without the checking that RE performs but it's still UDP and it's usually fast. There's probably a couple of things at play here:

Rings file server is not a webserver in some datacentre with a huge backbone but from what can be identified right now it's a server sitting in an office on a residential/business DSL connection. Uploads (what's happening when you get sent a file) are notoriously slow due to "plan shaping" for want of a better word.

In the old days files were downloaded directly to the HC from the file server. I imagine the speed was made slow to begin with due to the speed at which the HC could accept input through it's serial connection. We may just be still using this speed even though now files are downloaded to RPA first before being copied to the HC.

You should be able to quickly download the files from the server to Assistant using the full stack of TCP available on the computer.

Agree. This would require Ring moving the file server to a proper webhosting scenario.

You should be able to store those in Assistant

It does.

you should also be able to preview the sound files and preview pictures through Assistant.  Then you should be able to pick from those and COPY them to the controller, keeping them in Assistant so you don't have to go back to the server every time you need that file or files.

It does and you can. You cannot preview sounds (it should not be hard for him to add the code to do so) but you can preview pictures. All files that you download are stored in RailPro Assistant. If you delete a file from the HC then you can just copy it to the HC again without having to download it again from the file server. The RailPro Assistant manual and the guides available here would have covered this.

I wonder if it is possible for Ring to provide a flash drive solution. Can't get it working on the web - request a flash drive be sent.

This raises a good question. How does Ring get the programs and files on in the first place. It won't be by RF from a HC I'll bet. If he doesn't have them preloaded by the chip manufacturers then there must be a direct wired way. While I built my testing board to make loading things to modules easier a USB device with a 9 pin plug and the required software for loading files to a module would be great.

It is about as user friendly as a .gov website... Our current interface reminds me of the green screen Mac I had back in third grade.

No argument on that one. Ring really needs to drop the current UI for RailPro Assistant, to heck with making it look like the HC screen, just make it a functional piece of software using standard forms (Winforms, GTK etc) and be done with it. You can make the UI attractive using those form systems.

The UI for the HC and CI-1, that I feel could be made much better too, but that's going to be a subjective argument, what looks really good to me might look bad to someone else..

- Tim (not the RE one)

[robert.h.giffin]

Obviously I should have put some more effort into the RPA.  I just didn't feel like it was that robust.  I even tried to find the sound files in the file system thinking that I could just play them but there was no file structure containing anything that looked like a sound file so my assumption was that it did not store those files in the RPA.  Thanks for the clarification.

The other issue that I initially had was that there was no place in the documentation that indicted that the RPA was even required.  I plugged the HC into a USB port thinking that maybe the driver package was loaded from the USB to the computer and that it used the computer simply as a network bridge (yes, this CAN be done but it's quite rare).  Not once in the documentation is it mentioned that you need to download and install the RPA and THEN plug the HC in.  I had to find that here in the RPUG.  The documentation should state that the first thing you need to do is download and install the RPA (and give a link), update the firmware in both the HC and the decoders (it should actually do this automatically, like a Windows Update), and then download the sound, pictures, and light effects that you want.  Seems like a normal thing to anyone with a smartphone but keep in mind that your customers are DCC folks and are probably not expecting that.  A LOT of product failings can be addressed with proper documentation.  I don't know what the RailPro staff looks like but it seems like it is more of a community-supported thing.

I also understand the hosting situation for the Ring server.  It's a business decision to move it to a data center.  But not moving it and providing a realistic architecture will negatively impact the adoption of the system.

Thanks for the comments Tim.

[Alan]

...  A LOT of product failings can be addressed with proper documentation...

Amen brother. That shortcoming has been articulated many times before. Tim Ring may be a talented engineer but his documentation skills leave a lot to be desired. He would do well to hire a professional technical writer. Same goes for most DCC manufacturers.

[robert.h.giffin]

If it has been articulated many times and it STILL hasn't changed, then that indicates a real problem.  Documentation is an easy fix.  Has anyone volunteered their time to maybe get a group of folks together and improve the documentation?  If the system is so well liked by the people in this group then I would expect that many people would be open to volunteering a documentation improvement effort.  Just a thought.

[Alan]

We must be mindful that Ring Engineering, like so many MRR suppliers, is a very small business with limited resources. Having said that, I still firmly believe in your statement - proper documentation is key. Imagine how much email and phone time Tim could eliminate by simply having well structured, comprehensive documentation.

As an example... see how long it takes you on the website or in the manuals to find the spec for maximum load on a LM3 output pin.

[G8B4Life]

The other issue that I initially had was that there was no place in the documentation that indicted that the RPA was even required

I just checked and you are right, all the manuals say is that you can update and load stuff and to go to the RailPro software link on their website. Not a great way to convey that message!

I'd also say the just plugging the controller in and expecting it to self update over the internet is not what anyone would expect; certainly I know of no consumer device that does that, and frankly I wouldn't want a device that does; I'll choose what and when thankyou.

I don't know what the RailPro staff looks like but it seems like it is more of a community-supported thing.

No, RailPro is not a community supported thing, Tim Ring supports his products 100% and if asked for help he will respond to it; he has never in our knowledge pointed anyone in our direction to get help. In fact you could say he doesn't acknowledge that this group exists (that in itself is another problem).

Has anyone volunteered their time to maybe get a group of folks together and improve the documentation?  If the system is so well liked by the people in this group then I would expect that many people would be open to volunteering a documentation improvement effort.

Unfortunately volunteering to do that would get a big thanks but no thanks. There is some behind the business reasons for it which I will not go on about but some of us here have tried to improve the situation. I have written 3 users guides aimed at the new user which are all available here on RPUG, and another member has just recently done an instructional video, also available from here on creating and loading pictures.

Imagine how much email and phone time Tim could eliminate by simply having well structured, comprehensive documentation.

As an example... see how long it takes you on the website or in the manuals to find the spec for maximum load on a LM3 output pin.

Imagine how much email and phone time Tim Ring could eliminate as well by pointing people to RPUG for community help, we've even solved things he couldn't!

Find the spec for the maximum load on an LM3 output pin? that spec doesn't exist in any published form. We definitely need better and more technical documentation.

Cheers,

- Tim